How do they do it?

[raposaNegra]

Meaning how can various of the Fly Tying Vice manufacturers justify a $300.00-$600.00 price tag on a vice? I am fairly certain I could have one CNC machined for cheaper than that and hand tooled (with the computer's aid) in the US.

Are we just a bunch of suckers, paying way to much for items because they are fly fishing related or have a certain brand name associated with it?

For $600.00 I can buy a nice mtn Bike, a rebuilt motor or tranny, a set of dope bling bling wheels to pimp my ride..... etc... basically a bunch of stuff that is much more complecated to manufacture than a vice, yet they must sell the stuff at those absurd prices, or they wouldn't be offering them.

I wonder what their margin is in a high end vice, 6000%?

[jrccarter]

[QUOTE=raposaNegra]
Are we just a bunch of suckers, paying way to much for items because they are fly fishing related or have a certain brand name associated with it?

QUOTE]
I have maintained for a long time that there is a great amount of fly fishing items that are ego driven only because of the name brand. For instance why buy a $400 reel when there are many reels that are around $100 that will do exactly the same thing. I think it comes down to the fashion show on the river everyone wants to have the very best even if they don't catch any fish. (The fisherman that do this know who they are)

I have a thompson vise that was $25 4 years ago. I don't need the spinning vise and all that extra stuff. If it holds the hook in place it is doing the job.

[FISHINWEAZ]

I did drop almost $300 a new reel though and I can justify it.

A reels just a reel isnt it? I mean isn't it just there to hold the line?

[powerbait]

I have a thompson vise that was $25 4 years ago. I don't need the spinning vise and all that extra stuff. If it holds the hook in place it is doing the job.[/QUOTE]

I'll second that vote. I have a basic Thompson vice that I've used for nearly 10 years and for the life of me I can't see what more I would need in a vice (though maybe a built-in GPS system would be nice). A more interesting discussion might be why ALL fly fishing stuff is grossly overpriced. Take tying materials: most of the stuff you find in a fly shop you can find at the craft store next door for 1/10 the price.

[GotFish?]

My old Thompson did OK, then after about 5 years I bought a Gorilla Brothers that was much easier and better to use, then last fall I picked up a Regal Medallion and now understand what a really good vise should be. Cannot understand paying $200 for the pedistal over $160 for the C clamp model, the "medallion" base cannot cost them over $5 max. By the way, the Regal cost me $40 at a garage sale.

[Cary]

A reels just a reel isnt it? I mean isn't it just there to hold the line?
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, I feel faint. No, Much more than that. if you merely need to hold line, a beer can will suffice.

[FISHINWEAZ]

Okay- beer can was good, lol. Just screwin around, get someone riled up haha

[castnblast]

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, I feel faint. No, Much more than that. if you merely need to hold line, a beer can will suffice.

good point Cary,

one time i arrived to the stream with only my spare spool and no reel body, I was so bummed! An hour's drive for nothing! I ended up just putting the spool in my wader pocket and measuring out 'nuff line for some short spring creek casts and had a fine day of fishing!

having done, it though... I'd rather NOT do it again!

[Mason]

a set of dope bling bling wheels to pimp my ride..... OH MY GOSH! LOL!

[FISHINWEAZ]

You see, I hunt huge Carp with lite tippets so I need a very smooth reel with an incredible drag system.

I caught this Carp http://www.ravensrealm.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/MHcarp.sized.jpg on a 2wt with a 2lb tippet and a #12 stimi. Without a smooth reel with a highend drag system, I would have never landed it.

I guess that's my problem. U see I fish w/ a 9' sage & I wont name the reel but it's got a real s#*ty drag. Guess I had better do some more investing huh?

[cje04]

Maybe the ego of an "elitist" is worth the $300-600?

[nightfish]

I dunno, how much does it cost to build the prototype vises, buy the machining equipment, buy the materials, patent the designs, pay for employees, insurance, landlord, utilities, packaging, writing and printing of instruction manuals, sales rep commission, taxes, warranty service and advertising? Then you've got to allow for some profit for the retailer, and he has to pay for the shipping from the mfg to his shop, pay his employees, rent, utilities, insurance, taxes and advertising.

Maybe the prices are high because of the quality of the product and the demand for that quality?

Why does a mountain bike cost so much?

Way, WAY back, in the days of the spice trade (pre & post Columbus), spices were extremely expensive. Pepper, cinnamon, cloves, mace & nutmeg (among many others) were considered more valuable than gold. In particular, clove, nutmeg & mace, which grew only in the Moluccas (a very small, remote region of the Spice Islands), were marked up thousands of times. The grower/harvester sold to a spice broker, who then sold to another spice broker, who loaded them onto his ships to send to mainland ports, where, again they were sold. The next step was to sell to caravan owners, who loaded up their animals with tons of spices, and moved them to the next trading center. You get the idea. By the time the goods got to Europe (Spain, England, Rome, etc) they were so expensive that they were purchased more for show than flavoring. Opulent menus were created just to showcase the wealth of spice a king or powermonger held, with flavor being a secondary consideration.

Today we don't have the extensive supply chain, but the costs still add up. Some folks may buy the high dollar equipment just because they cost the most, but I think the majority spend that much because of the performance that usually goes with the price tag.

[FISHINWEAZ]

WOW. Ok so remind me never to argue w/ you. ;-)

[raposaNegra]

because there are lots of machined parts..... I would have to say about 100 times as many hours in machining a good mountain bike than a rotary vice, and way more man hours in assembly. Yet I can buy I good aluminum mtn bike (front suspension) with lx-xt goodies for around $700.00. The top of the line renzetti vice is over $600.00. Now I know there is some R&D but they don't constantly re-tool and revamp their product line like bikes or cars (more so bikes where major retooling can ocuur every 2 years)....... Their volume is less, but still not significantly enough to justify a $600.00 sticker price.

I could CAD design, and have one produced for under that on a C&C machine.

There has to be less the $60.00 worth of parts, materiels, labor, R&D and advertising/marketing in one of those $600.00 vices. That is a great profit margin. I am in the wrong business. Standard retailer's markup in the fly fishing business is 100% meaning an item the fly shop pays $50.00 for the sell for over $100.00. When I was making a living selling computers I was lucky to get cost + 15% on a machine, or part (well outside of cables... cables are gold in the computer industry. The $10.00 printer cable you bought at where-ever cost them less than $0.75).... but the mark up in these goods is enormous.

Another example.... brand name flourocarbon leaders and tippet. If I can buy 250 yards of berkley flouro tippet material for $4.00, why is 25 yards of umqua $12.00 or a single tapered name brand flouro leader around $7.00? Markup to a market that is dumb enough to pay the exhobarant prices for brand names.

I don't feel bad about paying up to $2.00 for hand tied, local tyer's flies, as I know what kind of time goes into tying them. But, huge markups on mass produced items is only feasable because we haven't complained enough or changed our buying habbits enough as a market segment to make the manufacturers feel it in their pocket books.

[Spanks]

I'll admit it... I'm that guy- The one that'll drop WAY more than he has to just because it's "the best or most expensive". It's a damn disease. Ask my local shop and they'll tell you- I'm the sucker that pays their rent. Does this make me a bad person? NO. I'm sure my Renzetti vise, Fishpond pack, Evolution reel, and Orvis jacket are overkill- And yes, I'm the guy with XT components, titanium bb, and Kevlar seat on my MTN Bike... But you gotta be passionate about something. RIGHT?!- And I agree, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. I'm sure a lot of you catch more fish with less expensive gear- Maybe I'm compensating for something, but for me, I need all the advantage I can get, and if means sacrificing some of the paycheck for my passions by God I'm going to indulge. (I think I need therapy) :)

[nightfish]

Sure, there's definitely some fad or label markups in flyfishing. Flourocarbon is a great example of that, and in my opinion, the reason for brand name pricing is purely the ease of buying spools in a traditional format. But advertising costs are higher than you may think in our industry. A 1/3 page 4-color ad in a major flyfishing mag, to run for 6 issues is over $4,000.00 per issue! Figure you need exposure in at least 3 magazines, and that adds up quickly. If you really want to get noticed, you need to attend trade and retailer shows, averaging $1,000.00 for a 10x10 space, and then add in travel expenses and maybe some payroll, union fees to move your display in & out of the facility, the cost of the display itself, electrical costs, required insurance coverage and ad placement in the show brochure, and sometimes additional discounts for orders placed at the show to capture new clients. And don't forget to include in the retail markup the costs of running a shop. The markup is nowhere near all profit.

if you could R&D, produce, advertise & distribute a vise that isn't a ripoff of another design, you'd probably make a small profit. But would you really want just a small profit for all your work? And if it became popular, would you still get materials and parts for the same price, seeing as how you have a popular product? Will you have the money to invest in growth? Willl you have the money to purchase raw materials if market prices of the metals rise?

Take for example the Tungsten bead market. Why are they more expensive than brass? It's not just because tungsten is heavier than brass, or more environmentally friendly (tungsten ore is much dirtier to process than steel). The raw material isn't as plentiful as it's alloyed counterpart, is difficult to machine (or cast), and prices recently have jumped.

And finally, there is always markup in specialized markets. Flyfishing is a niche market, composed of dozens of other niche markets. Just like mountain bikes, there's varying price levels, based on features, quality, and even name brands. Why are you willing to buy a $600-700 mountain bike (which is about a mid-level price, I think?) when you can get a Huffy at WallyWorld for $200?

[Larry S.]

Jeezz.............and I'm still pissed off at $2.00 a gallon diesel fuel...............

[nightfish]

The $600 vises you're looking at aren't the major part of the market. I would guess that the average price of vises is around $200, based on the most popular models by Renzetti & Regal.

Oh, and those low cost Thompson vises that many people learn on or still use (I learned on one)...Thompson is now out of business. Maybe they didn't make enough profit? Or, maybe the cost of producing their last vise (Cobra) was higher than they expected? I don't have an answer to that one, but still, a long-time manufacturer of an industry staple is out of business.

[raposaNegra]

There are 2 kinds of $600.00 mtn bikes. This years mid level bike, and last years fairly high end bike..... not the top of the line race stuff which starts at about $1500 and can cost as much as a car.... but a fairly high end bike from last season.... new but at clearance pricing. As bikes, like cars have model years, there are bargains to be had. This is not the case in vices. Compare the Renzetti traveler at around $160.00 to the Renzetti Pro at $660.00. If there is more than $10.00 difference in production cost I will eat my hat. The pro has one more adjustment hinge, and a little fancier rotary mechanism, plus a little more capacity on hook size..... but In machining and assembly there can not be more than $10.00 difference..... yet there is a $500.00 price disparity.

I think the difference in price is based on our Demographics. I run a fly fishing related business and contacted some of the magazines that serve our market about advertising prices. They all sent me info about the demographics of their readership. Did you know that the average fly fisher is in his 50's and make over $300,000 a year (their numbers, not mine), giving him lots and lots of disposable income. Though I have guided lots of doctors, and lawyers, the average Joe fly fisherguy seems to fall well short of those numbers. I would say this board is a pretty good cross section of Utah fly fisherman.... and I think very few of us fall into that income range (I surely don't). If your target demographic is shoppers who have lots of money and are willing to pay a premium for a brand name.... then you can inflate your prices to what the market will support, and apparently it will support quite a lot as there are a lot of overpriced items in our industry.

[nightfish]

Ok, I agree they're probably marked up higher than the other models. And there's apparently a market for it. I guess the $600 vise is a public service...helping rich guy feel rich? But I still don't think you could produce one on a small scale for less than a few hundred at least.

Now you got me all stoked...I can't wait until I'm in my 50's!! $$$WOOHOO$$$

[traveler]

I really can't understand the pricing on the high end vises.
I had a Renzetti and sold it on the old VFS auction. Spent more time messing with the tension on the hook holder than tying flies. When trying to learn how to use it, spent more time adjusting it than tying flies. It kept binding up.

Never thought I woud spend big money on a fly reel until I started to fishing the San Juan (2X/yr) Without a good drag and a smooth reel, you will lose many fish on a size 24-28 fly. I know, it is catch and release but I at least like to see the fish before I let it go.

Back to the vises (I have many). Wouldn't you think if they were reasonably priced, they would sell many more? Maybe make more money?

[Larry S.]

Nightfish--- Stef can(wait till you are in your 50's) but then when is she going to make an honest man out of you? ;o)

Take it from me, have fun while you can. Your 50's(and 60's) will bite you on the arse soon enough. The rocks get snottier, the water colder, the flies all get smaller, the naps more frequent(along with peeing), and the young smart-arses less tolerable.

[raposaNegra]

anymore you don't need a bunch of specialized machines to build a product, nor skilled machinist and machine operators, and protoypeing is fast and easy. you model it in a 3-D cad program and cut it out of billet on a CNC machine. Just need a good 3-D modeler who understands the engineering aspects of the products and the materials to be used in it. Rapid prototyping and a good CNC machine could produce the parts for a vice like these in less than 20 minutes (the machining). Used CNC machines are cheap enough that one of my buddies owns one.... less than 10K for a good used older model. As most of the material in these vices is aluminum it is very forgiving on cutters.

As to fishing when you are older...... I guided a 87 year old guy early this summer....... and yes frequent urination was an issue. Ask me about it some day.

[Spanks]

With all you CNC pro's it sounds like opportunity is knocking at your door. If y'all can "walk it" like you "talk it" the vise manufacturers better watch out. Hell, I'll be your first customer.

[raposaNegra]

as a CNC pro. A CNC machine is a computer ran milling machine. You feed the machine the solid model from a CAD program and it cuts it out without human interactions.

[RAW]

Dang! Thompson went out of business? I hope I can get another 30 years out of my old Thompson vise. I love that thing for tying woven, extended-body flies. Not as many fancy arms, cranks and such to get my thread caught in when I'm whirling it around.

Larry. . . you just gave me a good idea with the peeing comment. You and I are going to get rich. If we can develop a new "Depends" diaper exclusive for the fly fisher and sell them for $600.00 to the rich, old farts, the dough will roll! Just imagine no more pee stops. Just go in the fly fisher endorsed diaper and then just disgard it in the nearest Forest Service dumpster when done.

[Curtis Fry]

Given a choice, I'll still pay more $$ for my Dyna King even though it ties the same flies as my old Thompson would.

The same "How do they do that" argument can apply to rods, flies, reels etc as well. Honestly, do you know what the raw material cost in graphite goes into the highest end rod? Also, I would say Mr. Nightfish has hit the nail on the head regarding margins etc. Having worked in consulting with manufacturing/engineering companies for the past 6 years, you'd be very surprised how much true cost there is in relatively simple products.

In the end, we can guess and estimate all we want, but the truth is none of us knows for sure.

I still like my Dyna King....

[Larry S.]

I can see it all now.

On the next Blacksmith Fork clean-up we will be picking up worm cups and "Depends"! ;o)