missed the spline......

[steelie]

I'm working on a blank that the manufacturer miss marked the spline (or spine for some of you). I've seen this quite a bit, but this one is way off(70 to 80 degrees). If I were to wrap it on the spline, the logo would be almost on top - so I'm going with their marking. Should I wrap the top section the same as the butt, or should I do it correctly? Any thoughts?

[blueindn]

Personally I would worry more about the performance of the rod than the manufacturer's logo. Most of them are easy to remove and then you could wrap the rod properly. Wrapping the rod 70% off the spline will affect the performance, but if you want to keep the logo I would suggest maybe splining the tip and going that way; however, I recommend -and this is just me- that since it is a custom rod you remove the logo and spline it correctly. Depending on how pronounced the spline is, you may not notice, but it may be the difference between a good rod and a great rod. I hope this helps.

[chris]

Nothing worse than a missed spline. All a logo does is say what brand, I'm guessing you are the only one who need know cuz fish'e fish'e has not a clue.

[steelie]

I am certainly not going to build an ugly rod - if it came down to it, I'd send it back and have them rescreen the logo. Maybe I'll wrap the tip section on the spline and the butt so the logo is in the right spot and do a little casting before I finish it.

[Lonnie]

Hey Steelie,

From my LIMITED understading, the spline only REALLY matters on the tip section. I would do what you suggest and wrap the tip with the correct spline and the butt section so the logo matches up. Any REAL rod builders wanna comment ?

Just an Idea....


Lonnie

[Jason]

Forget the logo, spline it right. Who cares where their markings are, they make mistakes too. Your rod will cast so much better when the splines are lined up.

[Cary]

Sounds like you have a Sage. Its a bitch removing their logo, and they align the blank for straitness, rather than effective spine.

Tape up the guides and do some test casting, see what you think. As well, if the spine is not very pronounced, then the effect it has is minimal, and it probably wont matter what axis you place the guides.

BTW, you know why "spline" has crept into the rodbuilder's vernacular? well, Norm can tell us that the individual peices of baboo are splines, thats one reason. But the dude who wrote "the" book, Dale Clemens, had a misprint on the first edition, discussung the effect of spLine, rather than spine, and SpLine has forever infected our vocabulary. This was a good book in a lot of respects, but the discussion of spine was full of untested old wives tales.

Say it with me, All... S P I N E.

[jdubya]

Say it with me, All... S P I N E.

jepardy question: what does dubya lack???

[Cary]

That would be, Truthfulness, Alex! (Sorry for the hijack, dammit JDub!)

[newtyer]

Don't worry about the butt section.

[Drake]

I would worry about the butt section. Especially if it's a 2 piece.

[Trout4x]

I would scrap the whole project and buy a Thomas & Thomas!

[Crosby]

JDUBYA- I stayed away from that comment from the get go- but since you brought up. Between K&E- You couldn't even get scoliosis. Well maybe you could but Kerry would say he thought he had it but didn't before he actually did have it thinking that he didn't.

[Jason]

I like Spline better. Spine just sounds so, so, so, ......plain.

[newtyer]

I would worry about the butt section. Especially if it's a 2 piece.

Why?

Weight of line and guides makes the whole spine thing needless. IMO it's a myth. It's not going to twist. Its not going to throw farther. Its not going to speed up the action. Besides the spine is not in a straight line anyways, it spirals from the prepeg being wrapped on a mandrel.

Actually, I guess its all a matter of opinion. I would just stay with the straight line, If spining it doesn't affect the straightness, go for it. I would spend more time finding the stiffest axis and getting the guides in the correct place to match the action of the rod than anything else.

[Cary]

I think NewTyer is on to something....

[Drake]

Why?

Well honestly I am a beginner, but before I built my first rod I did quite a bit of research.

I watched L.A. Garcia’s video many times. I read many professionals online instructional seminars. I talked to people in flyshop’s. I read its importance on this site. All the info I received was that you should spine your rod.

Once you get the hang of it, it takes about 30 seconds. So why not? I realize Steelie’s predicament, but I would either send it back or just spline it correctly.

Does it make a difference? Logically yes, but I don’t’ know, all my rods are spLined. I don’t have anything to compare it to.

If something only takes 30 seconds to do and most professionals (I say “most” because obviously you have heard differently) stress the importance, then I would think you should do it.

Just curious, is this something that you have tested yourself or did someone tell you this?

[Cary]

for the most part I agree with you. But.... Factory rods have come along way in terms of cosmetics and performance, so the benifets of having a custom rod built is getting negligable So, along of rodbuilders are touting the spine as being the thing that separates their work from the mass-produced plastic sticks. They "properly" spine the blank.... yeah, if I can find two folks to agree that that means,,, we, thats another topic.

I wondered abou this years ago, and asked soeme competitive casters what they thought. most will say it dont matter.

I still spine my blanks, but probably more of habit than anything else. THe limited testng I have done, I really cannot tell the difference.

[Jason]

If you want the intended flex and action of the rod, you should spline it. It seems kind of logical to me.

[Cary]

If you want the intended flex and action of the rod, you should spline it. It seems kind of logical to me.

What exacly do you mean? Are you suggesting blank designers actually consider the effect of the spine?

How would placement of the guides on an axis other than the effective spine change the rod flex and action?

Steelie, what did you decide?

[steelie]

Steelie, what did you decide?


I wrapped the tip section on the spine ( <- sPine just for you...) and I am going to wrap the butt so the logo is in the right spot. Then I'll tape a reel to the blank and do a little casting, make sure it doesn't throw a curveball. I'll have to cut the guides back off the butt to assemble the handle of course. If I like it, I'll wrap them in the same spot. Yes it is a Sage - 490 RPL, and I don't think the spline is very pronouced. I tend to agree with Lonnie - I think it only matters in the tip section. This whole thing may be good for discussion, but it really is kind of a moot point as far as this rod is concerned. The rod is a gift for my father, and I don't think he has had more than 20 feet of line out for 40 years - so it is not like this rod is going to be asked to go 80' into a stiff wind, a long willow or a broomstick would be just as effective for the dapping and roll casting he does. He has never had a really nice rod though - so that is why it is important the rod be pleasing to the eyes.

[Jason]

What exacly do you mean? Are you suggesting blank designers actually consider the effect of the spine?

How would placement of the guides on an axis other than the effective spine change the rod flex and action?

Steelie, what did you decide?
Well, if you take a blank, put one end on the floor and the other end in your hand and roll it, it has a natural bend. This is how you find the spine, right? Now if you bend the blank in different directions you can definitely tell there is a distinct difference in flex and stiffness. From what I've read and learned, the natural flex coincides with the spine. Am I way off here or just trying to be smart? Cary, you're the expert here, you tell us. :-)

[newtyer]

The problem is that everyone thinks they are an expert. All these self published books, mags, etc.. Should be taken for what they are. Someones opinion. Same with my thoughts expressed here. I have yet to build on a blank that has such a pronounced spine that it out weighs the effect the guides weight and the stiffness those guides give a finished rod. Take your unfinished blank and give it the ol Common Cents test. Rolling the blank 360 degrees will end up with a difference of maybe a penny or two. Now wrap the guides on there and do the same test. The placement of the guides and the stiffness the wraps and the guide foot gives will vary much much more, in a way giving the finished rod IMO a true spine. Add the weight of the line and the casting stroke and I bet the whole spine theory has nil effect. I prefer to build my rods straight so they cast straight rather than build on the spine and have the rod be crooked and cast a little off.

The problem with the whole spine "theory" is that there really wasn't any scientifical evidence to support it. I hope my post makes sense, I had to chime in real quick. Busy day.

[Cary]

Jason, thats pretty much what I think as well. I like to place the guides on the outside of the "relaxed curve, or the spine. Probaly out of habit, from an earlier belief that basically went "I want the rod to unload on the forward cast without any effect of spine tourqe, therefore, accuracy is improved"

I also find that with the better quality blanks, the oreintation of the spine consides wth a straight rod, so I rarely have to choose between the two.

As Newtyer points out, there really isnt any tests to show spine makes any difference, and I pretty-much buy everything he says, with the exception that guides stiffen the rod. I dont think that happens.

If the spine issue is moot, there really isnt much for rodbuilders to argue about, so maybe we ought to keep the myth alive.

"...if you dont spine your blank correctly, the rod could shatter in your hand and the fibers literally tear themselves apart as the rod seeks the flex of least resistance" author unknown.

[FlyGuy]

I've located the weak spot on the blank and lined the guides accordingly, so I understand what's being debated here. However, I've got a question. Did any of you see the picture of Lance (Carpman) in yesterday's paper? If so, how do you think the position of the rod in relation to the spine and the forces away from that axis -- the line in the guides -- effects the cast he's making? While far from scientific, it appears the position of these forces is pretty insignificant if Lance can cast that way and still be one of the "best of the West." Then again, maybe he'd have won the thing if he'd kept that spine straight with the cast! ; ).

[Drake]

I think Lance only fishes with the TCR's now and they don't have a soft side. Have you ever tried to find the spine on a 9' piece of 1" re-bar? It's about the same...

[Cary]

Now this is the funky thing, the "soft" side is usually 90 degrees from the "hard" side, and neither is the "effective spine".

So where the hell do the guides go!!!

-Cary

[Ouzel]

and a lot more ways to 'use' the spLine. The spLine is no myth and its placement does matter; how can it not, it's right there in the blank so it will effect the way the blank flexes! Modifing issues lie in the blank construction as to how much the spLine (I agree Jason) is stiffer then the rest of the blank.

Everyone wants to be a tournment caster and so most locate the spline on the back towards the caster so they can use the extra stifness to punch out line. BUT, the spline can be used in other ways. There is the abilty to rotate the spLine of either section to get the kind of overall rod flex you want for the rod you are making up to fish certain waters. For smaller waters I like a rod with very soft presentation so in addition to a full flex (parabolic) rod I will turn the spline to the water so my forward cast is very soft. For lakes and big rivers I know there will often be the need to punch out line to hit a certain lie.

On any blank if you put the lower section's spline towards you and the upper section's spline away you'll have what a lot of mfgs. try to give the average caster, a rod with stiffness in the lower section to give the line some speed and get it up in the air and a softer presentation. Of course mfgs accomplish this in other ways within a design and production environment.

There are a lot of ways to design and construct a blank and there are a number of ways to assemble the blank.

Want more of the flex in a rod, don't wrap the guide tight. Want more, go to single foot guides. Want even more, don't wrap the single foot tight. Each wrap takes away from the flex of the rod and if you wrap tight, even more is taken away. How much handle do you need and do you want the stifness of a mfg. seat or slip rings over a cork ring handle?

More then one way the skin a squaw.

[Cary]

Good theories, how much of this can you prove?

[Ouzel]

Don't misuse the word 'Theory', it is "a statement to explain phenomenon from reproducable criterion".

Even if I did/do prove to your satisfaction I'm still not going to say spine.
I don't come cheap if you want documentaion but I'll try to type slow and keep this simple.

Get a couple of furring strips (1"x1 1/2" x 8') and pound them in the ground about 6' apart with the 1 1/2" sides facing each other. Wrap (incircle) a 13' piece of string around them a little higher then your hand position in a normal easy cast. Insert your rod between the strings which now forms a 6' x 1 1/2" pathway.

On a windless day/evening cast 10 times and notice where the fly normally falls. Now turn the tip section 90 degrees and notice the different area the fly will normally fall. Then turn the tip section 180 degrees from normal and notice again the different normal area of fall.

Of course a person is not a machine a can not reproduce the same duration of force or amount of force with each cast but this set up is one of the practice tools used by accuracy casters to help control their stroke and to evaluate a blank. And some of them will use carpenter snap string to see if/how they touch the string.

Now, do you promise to try it? Ya right.

I'm now going to make sure I always refer to it as "SPLINE".

[Cary]

Your system is too complex for my simple mind. I doubt you've tried it, too. There are easier ways to quantify the effect of rod spine. Yes, I meant to say quantify. Like Newtyer, I've messed around with the Cmmon Sense approach, and noted that the Action Angle and ERN change little with respect to effective spine oriention, especially with higher quality blanks.

But agian, the debate is really whats of value.

[Ouzel]

I'm sorry you feel it is too complex for you as it is a old practice tool that was used by the Lincoln Park Casting Club located just off Chicago's lake front. They taught and practiced distance and accuracy casting with all types of rods and reels.

A tree falling in the forest still makes a sound.