Entomology Excitement! I want to learn!

[thor444]

I can't believe how much I have learned in the last week or so as a new member. All I think about is being on the river, it is driving my wife and coworkers crazy.

I have a couple of questions though....

Does anyone know a good way to build or even buy some sort of seine to maybe stick in the river and catch some naturals? You know, let them drift in and get caught so that I can study the actual bugs. I read a bit about someone doing it. How helpful is it on the river to find out what is swimming at that moment?

Second, is it acceptable to pump the stomach of a fish that I have caught with one of those overpriced Orvis Turkey Basters? Is it like cheating? Am I going to hurt the fish if I intend to release it?

When I tie on my nymphs, should I tie the second one to the hook ben of the first or just leave a very long tag to tie the next fly on? Does this provide a more natural drift? What about the weight, maybe put it on a tag or seperate tippet below the flys? Especially on the Provo, I am the snagmaster general.

[steelie]

Seine - yep, they are available. Bulkier ones with sticks attached go for about $20 at a fly shop. Neat ones that go over your landing net go for about $30ish. If you really want to go cheap, get a big green aquarium net at wal-mart.

gut-pumping - don't do it until someone has shown you how, you'll hurt the fish. And think about this for a second, if you just caught the fish - don't you already know what he is eating?

Nymph rigs - see large debate/arguement to follow........LOL

[Crosby]

seine- 2 cheap wooden dowels - staple screening in between- into it maybe $4.00-

[Teewinot]

I think Steelies right. The debate is just about to begin ;)

thor444- If you want to build you a seine you can do so fairly cheep. Just get a couple wooden dowels and some window screen, then just staple the screen onto the dowels. Just make sure to leave a couple inches on the bottom of the dowels so you can push it right down to the bottom of the river and pick up those bugs right at the bottom.

Checking the river for what bugs are there is very helpful. Basically you can approach a river two ways, just show up, tie on whatever you feel like and hope that's what the fish are eating. Or you can show up, take a little time to see what kind of bug activity is going on, then you can try to match up your fly to what the fish are actually eating, then you can catch several more fish while your buddy is still trying to figure out which fly to switch to.

Stomach pumps have and always will be a touchy subject. If you choose to do it make sure and buy a pump designed for fish instead of making your own or just buying a turkey baster. Only use the pump on fish around 14 to 20 inches. Also just plain don't do it unless you've been properly instructed. If you do it correctly you aren't hurting the fish other than taking away what he's already worked to eat. But you can also learn a lot from seeing what they are eating. One option is to pump the stomach of a fish you plan to keep, especially on the Middle Provo ;)

On your nymph rigs if you are getting tangled up often I would suggest making it as simple as possible. The more complicated set up you have will typically end up giving you more tangles if you don't cast properly. I think the most simple set up if you want to have two flies on is to tie the second fly on the bend of the first fly. If you are still tangling them up, I would just fish one fly.

______________________________

Looks like Crosby beat me to the wood dowel set up while I took forever writing this post.

[jim m.]

I've always used the stuff they make wedding veils out of. I think it's called roul (sp). I like it better than the window screen because it's softer, more flexible and it comes in white (bugs stand right out in it). All the craft stores carry it and it's super cheap. Cut it what ever shape you need and you can hot glue all the seams. I have one that slides over my net so I don't have to pack dowels around.

have fun.

[Trouty]

Some old pantyhose (from your wife) stretched over your hand makes a quick and easy seine. Not as big as some but still works well in a pinch.

[Utah DaveII]

So let me get this straight you head out to the river with panty hose in tow. Trouty...I'm worried about you man!

[Tom]

All realy good suggestions on the seine. The kind that goes over you're landing net is in my opinion one of the best ways to go. In summer, it's not too cold to dip a hand to use the net, but in winter, you would have to be as crazy as someone who carries pantyhose...and admits it...to dip a hand.
The net lets you go to the bottom without getting soaked.

As far as pumping a fishes stomach....gahh I hate the topic. I have been Fly Fishing for 34 years and I have never done it nor will I. I believe that you're stressing the fish enough just catching it, without taking all of it's hard won food from it's gut and leaving it empty to try and fill up again. It is starting over with no food energy resource and has to immediately start expending energy just to catch up. I have always felt it's too invasive. I am sure that there are studies stating that it's not. But I choose to be on the safe side.

Just my 2 cents.

Tom

[Teewinot]

Trouty -- I thought you told me you just wear them so while you're fishing you can be collecting bugs as well. ;)

[Trouty]

Yep, yep .... pantyhose .... you never know what you might "collect" with 'em!!! :>))


I would also never dip my hand in the winter (unless its to release a fish cause thats not cold). I purchased an off-the-shelf over-the-net seine and don't care for it. The current creates too much force against it and washes the majority of the bugs out of it. I think both the screen and the bridal gunks would probably work better than what I purchased. I'm interested in that bridal veil stuff. A little of that and a pair of nylons ....... sounds interesting!!

Tee ... you heading up to Island Park for opening or is your wife keeping you under locks? I will probably be up there getting things ready for the summer. If you're there you could show me how to pull a hog outta Henry's!! I promise to leave my nylons at home!? or at least at the cabin!

[cheech]

Yep, yep .... pantyhose .... you never know what you might "collect" with 'em!!! :>))

Yep. then after a long day fishin' you can stick them pantyhose over yer head, go to a gas station, and walk out with free beer!

[Jason]

Check out the quick-seine product by Angling Designs. Good stuff.
http://www.utahonthefly.com/articles/frameset.htm

I've been building my own seine for the past 4 years out of mesh material used for screen doors. You can buy a huge role at Home Depot for $8. I'll try and post a pic of my giant seine that measures 4ft by 3 ft. It works sweet.

[Teewinot]

Jason - It's taken you 4 years huh? I want to see this!

[Lonnie]

I've got the $5 special dowels and window screen but also have the orvis seine net. It's sweet....

http://www.orvis.com/store/product_choice.asp?pf_id=53CY&dir_id=758&group_id=792&feature_id=17&cat_id=7&subcat_id=30

I like it because I don't have to take any extra equipment with me. If I want to see what the fish are eating, I just pop it into the creek for a second or two....

L

[Jason]

Jason - It's taken you 4 years huh? I want to see this!
Ha ha. Nice one. That should have read seines (plural). I've built 4 of the them in the last 4 years due losing or breaking them.

[thor444]

I think I have found the perfect seine in the sand box out back. It is a small butterfly/grasshooper net with a plastic handle. I just wish it wasn't pink and I hope my 4 year old does not find it missing!

Starter Fly rod reel and line: $176
Avon Sunblock: $6
Stealing Equipment form your 4 year old: Priceless

[«°Ñøvã°»]

Seine.....Paint stores sell 5 gallon bucket paint strainers very durable some of the 5 gallon types have an elastic band that wraps around the rim of the bucket. Works great on either a net or not. Price....lil under a buck. The also have 1 gallon size as well

my 3.2c

[Ouzel]

are realy nice but since I just refurbished my very old landing net and replaced the tatered net with a new fish friendly net I thought a just might use a pices of cheese cloth in the net when I need to seine the river for 'what's happening now'!

I don't think a 12" X 12" square of cheese cloth will take up much room in my back back.

Thanks Orvis.

[Curtis Fry]

No, you've got it all wrong....

The Home Depot is the place to start. Get about 30 yards of the super high screen door material (about 8 feet high). String that between two trees on opposite sides of the river and then stake the bottom into the river bed. Just sit back and if you're lucky when you bring in the super-seine, you not only get a good view of the bugs, but you can also walk away with a fine mess o' fish. And on the LP, you can score a few extra points by snagging a couple of rubber-rafters at the same time.

[jrccarter]

I noticed at Maceys they had butterfly nets for $1.00. You could cut the bamboo handle off and set it inside your fishing net and it would work perfect

[cheech]

No, you've got it all wrong....

The Home Depot is the place to start. Get about 30 yards of the super high screen door material (about 8 feet high). String that between two trees on opposite sides of the river and then stake the bottom into the river bed. Just sit back and if you're lucky when you bring in the super-seine, you not only get a good view of the bugs, but you can also walk away with a fine mess o' fish. And on the LP, you can score a few extra points by snagging a couple of rubber-rafters at the same time.


Good ID!!! Lets do it when the bikini hatch is in full peak.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

I'm not a fan of the stomach pump at all. I see absolutely no reason to pump a fishes stomach to find out what they are feeding on. Afterall, you just caught the fish....keep using what you caught it on.....


If you are fishing the Provo, a much more effective tool than stomach pumping, is a pocket knife. Insert the knife into the fish’s anus, and then make an incision about 2 inches deep all the way up to its throat. Pull (rip) the guts from the cavity. Now, find the stomach. Once you find it, make an incision in the stomach, and squeeze out the contents. You should be able to see exactly what the fish has been eating from this.

Now, make sure and take the cleaned fish, and put it in your creel. Continue fishing with whatever pattern you just caught the fish on, and disregard what you just found in the fishes stomach. Catch another fish, and repeat the above process...

[JayMorr]

If you are fishing the Provo, a much more effective tool than stomach pumping, is a pocket knife. Insert the knife into the fish’s anus, and then make an incision about 2 inches deep all the way up to its throat. Pull (rip) the guts from the cavity. Now, find the stomach. Once you find it, make an incision in the stomach, and squeeze out the contents. You should be able to see exactly what the fish has been eating from this.

Sounds vicious.

Mug a fish

JayMorr

[BTFS]

I always use a tungsten bead headed nymph as the first fly in the setup (WD-40, RS-2, Zebra Midge, Hares Ear, PT, etc). I like the weight of the 3/32 size bead. From the Madison to the Ogden, this weight seems to work the best. In some instances snagging on the bottom is a good thing. You then know your flies are where you want them to be. Maybe try changing the distance of your strike indicator to your flies.

I usually don't intend on catching a lot of fish on the first fly, so I use what they are eating as the second fly. I always tie to the shank of the hook, never had a fish take the first fly and hurt the line to the 2nd fly . If you tie to the eyelet of the first fly you can run into trouble with the line tangling.

Bottom line, practice. Find what works for you and have fun doing it...

BTFS

I wear my panty hose underneath my waders, they breathe so good...

[Ouzel]

It may be that PBH's new role as Mr. Nice Guy is a bit of a strain for him now and then but he's done remarkably well.

[Trout4x]

My vote is for the one that slides over the net it is out of the way and always very handy!

[chris]

I'm not a fan of the stomach pump at all. I see absolutely no reason to pump a fishes stomach to find out what they are feeding on. Afterall, you just caught the fish....keep using what you caught it on.....


If you are fishing the Provo, a much more effective tool than stomach pumping, is a pocket knife. Insert the knife into the fish’s anus, and then make an incision about 2 inches deep all the way up to its throat. Pull (rip) the guts from the cavity. Now, find the stomach. Once you find it, make an incision in the stomach, and squeeze out the contents. You should be able to see exactly what the fish has been eating from this.

Now, make sure and take the cleaned fish, and put it in your creel. Continue fishing with whatever pattern you just caught the fish on, and disregard what you just found in the fishes stomach. Catch another fish, and repeat the above process...

Did some one call a priest before the first incision?

Swing the ordinance Grizz!

My reason for asking is in wonderment of your true enjoyment.

[thor444]

Great numbers of fish, should I keep a couple smaller ones or would someone on the river want to lynch me? The last couple of years I think I have noticed some stunting. I just figured it would be blaspemous?

[raposaNegra]

and noticed they had some nice bamboo handled butterfly nets for $.99 so I had to get one to add to my fishing kit.

[clingding]

Yah, yah I'm a day late n' a dollar short on this thread. Consider me one a' the loud-mouth nutsacks from the "other board'' comin' over to 'cause trouble.

Recently I harvested a couple of beautiful browns from the lower reaches of a popular river. The ''harvest'' there has been greatly ''encouraged.'' (If any of you follow my threads and have been dying to know, I've just spouted way too much info.)

Anywho, regarding harvesting, I'm a ''throw 'em on the barby, same day'' kinda guy, not a ''toss 'em in the freezer, never eat 'em'' dude. I'd say that maybe once in about twenty outings, i'll harvest. Most always in the summer, usually to enjoy fishy flesh around a fire.

So, where am I going with this? Harvest a fish here n' there, especially when n' where it's encouraged!!! Certainly do-so (if you're inclined) in areas where the fish use to be huge, but are now stunted and overpopulated!

(Here's the tie-in-to-the-thread.) When you harvest, clean your fish, (don't leave blood n' guts streamside) and OPEN UP THE STOMACHS!!! I totally don't condone pumping a fish. They work hard for a meal. Might as well kill 'em if you're gonna pump 'em.

The browns that I took were chock-fulla RockRoller Caddis. Very, very interesting finding indeed. I see Caddis cones in rivers everywhere. RockRollers are common too, but you see 'em less. I've read of patterns where you roll a glued-up nymph around in sand n' gravel, but i've never tied one, and I can't remember seeing said pattern in a shop. Yet these fat fish were engorged upon 'em.

[Grizz]

Juke, the flyfishing stallion that he is, caught & killed a good 17-18" hybrid on a large river where the eradication of all rainbow & their hybrid bastard offspring is highly encouraged. The fish (male) was takin' in the midst of a medium action pmd hatch. After he'd removed the entrails, he tossed 'em to me, & I proceeded to disect them. I could not belive the amount of pmd nymphs this trout had in its stomach, I literaly had more than a handful of 'em. Other than the small nymphs & emergers, there were two broken down salmonfly nymphs. The fish was delicious that night around the fire with some fresh vegetables & mushrooms........;-)

I've packed a stomach pump before in the past, but cringed every time a fish burped or hollered. The information was nice, but I don't reccomend the use of one to anyone. Hatch charts, fly shops, books, & the wondeful www, are all a guy (or gal), really needs. But a fish ready for the coals will always give up a few secrets also...............................

peace