Dry or die

[Tightloop]

Just to see the amount of interest and participants this would get.

Utah only fishing competition. Similar to a bass tournament but with the obvious fly-fishing differences. It would be a Dry only competition.

There would be awards/winnings for the winners of course.

Lets here your thoughts.

[cheech]

To heck with the trout, lets do it for bass. Dahlberg's divers, and poppers are dry flies too. I suck with the conventional dry, but with big surface bass bugs, I should be able to hold my own. I have a 7 wt that is being built for that very purpose.

In all seriousness, it may be hard to get honest measurements on the trout. It would have to be an "on your honor" tourney. I had a bad experience with the on your honor system... I caught a C&R state record Smallie at 21.25", and then some joker has the nerve to submit one that was 21.5". B.S. if you ask me... Ok enough venting....

[Tightloop]

Cheech I totally understand what your saying - The possibility of getting enough volunteer "Official Judges" is there. I 100% agree that we would have to have an official to measure fish, monitor that rules are followed and etc.

[«°Ñøvã°»]

Sounds fun.. if we get enough people we can pair up into teams as well.

[Trav]

Tightloop,

Sounds intresting...Maybe we could plan a day and have judges with each team? Make is a UTOF fly fishing challenge? Of course it would be dry fly only! :-)

shrug?

Trav

[Tightloop]

That is what I was thinking. Just floating some ideas around and brain storming.

My thoughts:

River less known somewere that the fishing can be challenging, but a place were most the competitors have not fished often.

Don't anounce the river till 3 days before the challenge.

Only the official judges know the water.

2 man teams with one judge to each.

There would be alot of quirks. But I think it could be fun. I am sure we could get some kind of awards to make it interesting.

[«°Ñøvã°»]

I could help out and tie some flies for awards lemme know if i can lend a hand or something

[Ouzel]

thought about UOTF having a 'Fishing Derby'; yearly.

Maybe in connection with a river clean up day.

The Lower Provo is the most likey place for its location, parking, location, familarity, location and its fish pop.

Maybe other years it could be the Ogden, Weber etc. but one that the majortiy can get to with not much trouble.

Sorry Cheech, it should be about Trout and Rivers as that what most of us are about.

That does not preclude another Derby for Stillwater.

If you want Dry Only, does it mean single fly no barb?

You'll need a common measuring method/device for the judges to remove arguements, ya right.

You'll need to conduct the Derby on a Saturday so the Mormons fly fishers can attend. No, what about the Jewish folks. Well maybe late Sunday, no that still won't work.

Let's make it Friday, screw work. There will be enough notice so you can save a sick/personal day.

[nightfish]

One judging option would be to have photographic proof. Photo, with tape alongside. Digital would make it a same day decision.

I like Ouzel's idea of moving it around every year. Make it a little north-south rivalry. Walks could do a historical re-creation of the past year.

[Lonnie]

O.K. Ouzel,

How many jewish fly fishermen do you think there are in Utah, that hit this site ? I know your just trying to be PC. ;-) Myself, I'm currently "unaffiliated", just for the record.

Have fun with the derby. It's kinda goes against what Fly fishing is about for me. I would, however, offer up my services as a judge.

Lonnie

[Trav]

I think we would need to make sure that fish were handled properly with deductions for fish mishandled.

And of course single fly barbless hooks.

Lonnie,

I think this just adds a different twist and another means of challenging one another. But don't get me wrong, I will go out and fish like I normally do even though it would be a comp. :-)

Trav

[MPHarper]

I'd be happy to serve as a judge. This could be alot of fun.

The middle Provo is a "new river" now it might be a good location, too.

[stef]

I like it!! Just plan it for a day carpman has to work ;)

[Lonnie]

I'm thinking of bonus points for the number of budwiser cans you pick up in addition to your fish...

Lonnie

[Tightloop]

Awesome ideas with the clean up at the same time.

I am thinking of rods or G3 Waders and boots or something along those lines for the winning team. I will look into what kinda stuff we may be able to get for awards, and what kinda $$$$ it would cost. Maybe make this a thing were to enter the competition you must do the clean up the weekend before?

The photos is a great idea as well and something that could deffinetely be implimented. I guess if we are to get serious about this we would need to get a "commitee" or some sort of organized official organizers, which unfortunately would be volunteers for now. Then once the plans are finalized we could anounce the whens, hows, wheres, whos, and whatevers.

If you are serious enough about this and would deffinetely be interested in a serious matter let me know. The possibilities of getting this organized is highly likely.

[raposaNegra]

as most states have laws about fishing contests.... and only allow a certain numebr a year, and require a permit.... but I don't know if this is the case in utah.

[Tightloop]

Raposa - thanks for the heads up - I haven't even thought about that. This is something I will deffinetely look into. Thanks for the heads up!

[Ouzel]

I used the term 'Fishing Derby' rather then 'fishing competition'.

A lot of hasssle can be avoided if the competition does not have prizes or cash or sports equip.

What might be an idea is to have a UOTF Traveling trophy. Each year another person's name gets added and they retain the trophy.

A hotdog/hamburger kitty can be started or everyone can just bring their own.

The less formal the competition the less interference from outside agencys.

The Traveling Trophy ought to have your name on it.

[Junge]

The 2004 proc is on-line http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/proclamations/2004_fishing/2004_proclamation.pdf and fishing contests are covered on page 6. Basically any "contest" with 50 or more participants or over $500 in prizes require registration.

[Trav]

Maybe Maefly can hand out the prizes. ;-)

[Lonnie]

So, I guess it's the first 49 folks and a max of $499.00 in prizes.

Lonnie

[joshuahodges]

To get around that we wont call the prizes. we cann call the complemenatry gifts to the winner of the contest. When would it be? It sounds like a great idea, I wouldnt mind doing it if i am free

[MPHarper]

Page 6 of the 2004 proclimation:

(2) Fishing contests conducted for cold-water species of fish, such as trout, whitefish, and salmon may not be conducted:

(a) if the fishing contest offers $500 or more in total prizes, or has more than 200 contestants, except on Flaming Gorge Reservoir and Echo Reservoir there is no limit to the amount that may be offered in prizes or the number of contestants;

(b) on those waters where the Wildlife Board has imposed special harvest rules, such as tackle restrictions, reduced limits, or size restrictions, or other exceptions to the general fishing regulations.
(i) The restrictions under Subsection (b) shall not apply to tournaments for non-salmonids if the non-salmonids are present in the same water.

(3) Contests for warm-water species of fish shall be conducted as follows:

(a) all contests as provided in Subsection (1)(a) must be:
(i) authorized by the Division through the issuance of a Certificate of Registration; and (ii) carried out consistent with any requirements imposed by the Division;

(b) Fish brought in to be weighed or measured may not be released within 1⁄2 mile of a marina, boat ramp, or other weigh-in site and must be released back into suitable habitat for that species; and

(c) If tournament rules allow larger or smaller fish to be entered in the contest than the size allowed for possession under the proclamation of the Wildlife Board for taking fish and crayfish, the fish must be weighed or measured immediately and released where they were caught.

[Ouzel]

I guess rule #2 shoots it down.

Maybe it would be best to continue Jason's approach in a more varifiable manner. Still have the UOTF Traveling Trophy and give points for each species caught, measured, photographed and released. At the end of each year ((season?)(time frame?)) everyone gets together calls them a superior liar and still bestows the trophy.

I don't know what can be done to varify any entry.

[Tightloop]

I will call DWR and see what kind of "Exceptions" can be made and if any, how do I get them made.

If it turns out to be imposible - then well - We'll look at a "fishing get together" instead.

[John Bell]

I say our sport doesn’t need any bull s---t tournaments. If you are into that stuff get a Bass Boat and go do it. (on a lake)

Our rivers and streams are exploited to much already.

[Tightloop]

I use to feel the same way John...... "I fish for enjoyment not competition" but from participating in similur things and seeing how much fun it really is, I changed my mind. I have never met a particpent that was a poor sport and didn't do it for much more then the fun.

I think that this would be a very fun event and with the addition of a required clean up would do great things for our rivers. Believe me the enviroment and fish health is of top concern and wont be held if it is to affect it in a negative way.

[cardiac]

One rule would have to be a competitor has to stay more than 20 yards (60') away from another competitor.
Sorry Cheech.

[fishned]

This has got to be the ultimate oxymoron

To me, competition of any sort seems to go directly against every reason I find joy in our sport. The pleasure I get stems from a chance to truly escape from all the pressures one encounters and deals with in the course of everyday life. Even if only for a few hours.

I love to compete hard on a golf course or a volleyball court. I understand the satisfaction one gets from winning or even losing a hard fought game. If I wanted to have that satisfaction extend to fishing I would, as John Bell suggests, get a bass boat.

The pleasure of solitude or with the company of a good buddy. There is not a person on this web site (or at least i don't think there is, lol) that I would not like to spend an afternoon with in search of the thrill of a tight line. But surely not to see who could find the biggest or the most.

My joy in fishing is not diminished, but rather enhanced, by watching the silly grin on a buddies face as he succesfully unravels the mystery of how to get that stubborn lunker to hit. And to laugh with him as he fights his quarry. Not to desperatly try and figure out how to better him.

If any one of you wants to go fishing, feel free to shoot me an e-mail. I would love to learn from you or teach you or just enjoy your company. But a flyfishing competition? Count me out.

[nhancock]

I fish for the fun and excitement as well. But what is wrong with a little healthy competition. I fish with my brothers and father frequently. Although no money exchanges hands it is competative. Everyone keeps their own tally of how many fish they caught and he (or in some cases she) who catches the most fish takes home bragging rights. In my family that can be much more valuable than money.

Besides I can fish every other day of the year by myself or with a friend. What is one day in a competition going to matter. If it is held on the Provo, or another well known river, the pressure won't matter at all. It's only one day during the year. Besides it gives us a chance to match some faces to the names we read about here.

[Crosby]

I have a hard time with both sides of the equation-
1. being a highly competitive person in just about everything I do- I like it- I love it-
2. Fishing is a get away sport for most- be competitive with yourself but not a win/ lose against another person.
3. BUT! many get on the case of the fishing tourneys- get on the competitors and the sponsers. These people also want the best in equipment for themselves???????? But they don't want the sponser to advertise it and promote it???????
Can't have it both ways- sorry- really should look at what you want and why you want it and then how that product is produced and how that sponser must show a profit or start fishing with a hand line. I understand we all wish this sport to be kept "pure"
but as a consumer we push for better products to be had- take a look on every post on what rod or reel should I get? Most come back- go with the best- this or that is quality - this has a replacement gaurantee- this works for ever- and the guy who posts hey this reel is only $25.00 has people post back that it isn't worth it- well if you want the best - you better be prepared to deal with how the manufacture promotes it- and one of the ways is sponsering the tourneys.

[Ouzel]

No one is holding a gun; so if some don't want to join in they can still bring their different viewpoints to afternoon meal and possibly be one of the better judges.

Even though we all know it is a 'different frame of mind' 'each time' we go out to enjoy ourselves outdoors and maybe enjoy the company of a friend or two let us not delude ourselves in thinking our built in competitive nature is not at play when we are tying to fool a fish into taking our well tied presented fly. It may be minimum competition to some but it is there none the less.

Taking the time, getting dirty and maybe straining some muscles to clean up a river is a worthwhile endeavor so why not make some of it into lemonade by having a bit of fun fishing competition afterward.

Our first UOTF clean up on the Provo was well attended, I thought, by (20/30?)people who do more than give lip service about caring for the enviroment in which they live. After some hotdogs and bugers most of us scattered up and down the river to wet a line while some stayed at the shelter and chatted. The only thing missing was a evening meal to see how the fishers did that day and reward an individual with a traveling trophy for their having a lucky day.

Cardiac is right, though I do not know from personal experience and only from heresay evidence, Cheech is always trying to fish close enough to see what flies you are fishing, if you have any weight on the leader and which drifts you are working. I've heard he is funny and good company but always trying to get an edge on you. Talk about being competitive. :-) :-)

[Trav]

In a way everytime you go our fly fishing it is a competition. It's you against the fish. After the perfect presentation you may have the opportunity to hook into a nice fish.

Trav

[Tightloop]

I have spoke to the DWR and had some rules/laws elaborated on and got some great news and cleared it with an official at the DWR.

The tournement is clear. We may hold it. If it is under $500 in total prize and under 250 participants. All normal fishing regulations on the river/lake we hold the competition on must be obeyed by all participants. If it is over 50 participants it must be certified.

In other words I talked to the DWR and we are within the regulations/laws planning will proceed. Sorry to those who are frowning on the idea of the fishing "contest/competition/derby/trournement"

HOUSTON WE HAVE A GO!

[Ouzel]

One fly rule?

[raposaNegra]

I'm in...

[Tightlinez]

count me as no. 2 of the 250 allowed

[Trav]

Would it be a 2 person team (scored as a team) or an individual? And do we get to hand pick our team?

[Ouzel]

Names out of a hat and 2-3 fishers per judge?
No extra flies, no vest, no nutin.
Anyone caught cheating will have their name printed in the Tri. and be required to act as gilly to the winner for one year.:-) :-)

[Lonnie]

If the object of the tourney is fun, then I think that there should a variety of awards/prizes, biggest fish, smallest fish, highest number of fish, most number of species, most flies lost, etc. Just to "spread the wealth" so to speak.

I'm still willing to be a judge if I can work it out (schedule)....

Lonnie

[MPHarper]

We are still working on the particulars for the tournament, but all your ideas are welcome.

I like the idea for prizes for biggest fish, most fish, smallest fish, first fish....

What tightloop has decided so far is that we will hold the tournament in conjunction with a river cleanup or similar service project.

[Trav]

Oh wait, how did we go from dry fly only to the one fly comp?

[nhancock]

I am in. Where will this be held?

[MPHarper]

I've signed on the help Tightloop get things organized and I believe that it is still a dry fly, not a one fly competition.

We won't announce the location of the competition until shortly before ( about a week) the competition.

Matt-

[cheech]

I will be MWS' caddy. He's in, he just doesn't know it. I just suck at dries. Is it cool if he competes in a speedo? he's all about the aerodynamics of it all.

[MPHarper]

As long as he doen't think that the speedo will scare the fish.

[Trav]

I think it would add entertainment value if we get to pick our team.

I would like to join in on the fun and games.

Trav

[MPHarper]

Tightloop will correct me if I am wrong:

So far the competition will consist of two man teams of your own choosing that sign up. We will circulate an offical sign up list later.

So far the following have shown interest as participants or judges:

1. Trav
2. MWSpearo with personal caddy....
3. nhancock
4. Tightlinez
5. raposaNegra
6.

Judges:

1. Lonnie
2.
3.

We will be in need of quite a few volunteers to serve a judges and the like. I am making some measuring devices that will be uniform and and let the fish be measured in a "trough" that will have water in it to minimize handling stress on the fish. They will be similar to the ones that ESPN used in their competition on TV.

We will also try to make sure all judges have digital cameras for quality control purposes. And it will be catch and release only, naturally.

More to come...

[Lonnie]

I've got digital camera I can use.

Just thinking further about the rules....

Should both team members be able to fish at the same time (maybe not)? This would add a level of difficulty to the event. I also think "Dry fly" should be defined before the event (any fly that floats on top?) If a fly "drowns" is a fly still "dry"? I also agree with the idea that all boxes/vests should be inspected before the participants start fishing. Should artificial floatant be allowed ? A time period (say 2-3 hours) should also be considered. Do we limit the teams to the number of fish that count towards the final total length ???

Lonnie

BTW When it comes to judging, I'm a hard@$$ ;-)

[chris]

Shouldn't you be having regional tourney's first? That way you can have clean ups on a different water in each region before the big gig at the PROVO. I mean spread the wealth here let those that would normally not have any opportunity to travel 3 hours to the Provo first qualify to be able to fish in such a beautiful canyon. By scoring high enough in their region to move to the next round they would feel the joy of victory before the sorrow of defeat.

[MPHarper]

Chris,

That's a good idea but we haven't decided the location for the tournament yet, it could be on any of the waters in the area. We would like to do it somewhere that dosen't get fished alot (relatively that is).

Maybe we could do several tournaments each in a different area, but that will be farther down the road. We are still trying to get all our ducks in a row. This first one will have a steep learning curve for the organizers, we aren't professionals at this by any means.

[MWSpearo]

How did I get signed up for this thing.

[MPHarper]

MWS your personal caddy volunteered you. Don't worry nothing here is binding, yet.

[Jason]

I'm curious what water you plan to hold this event on? I can see us running into issues of other fisherman already fishing in those assigned sections for each team. Or would it even matter? Luck of the draw I guess.

I think if we followed the rules that were followed on the OLN Fly Fishing Masters, there won't be any questions of what's right and what's wrong. Here's a few things that need to happen.

1. Teams of two
2. One judge per team
3. The river is divided into sections (50 or 100 yards)
4. Each team draws out of a hat to determine which stretch to fish (this doesn't take place until 60 minutes before fishing time)
5. Each team has about 15 minutes to scope out there assigned section and choose their strategies.
6. Time limit will be 2 hours for each team
7. First fish must be scored/measured
8. Once each team member has two 'scored' fish they can quit or keep trying for bigger fish. If they do try to get a 'larger' fish and continue to fish, they run the risk of losing their second 'scored' fish. Refer to the OLN rules.
9. Each team could be allowed only 10 flies to fish with. The judge will verify that no cheating takes place.
10. Only one team member can fish at a time. You must 'tag' off to switch.
11. You can have up to 4 different rods rigged up.
12. Fish must be handled properly and released. Judge may deduct an inch or two if mishandling takes place.
13. Fish that are foul hooked will not be counted.
14. Fish will be measured by the judge and rounded up to the nearest quarter inch. We'll have to get some measuring trofts. ???
15. Judges will use stop watches
16. Teams will be assigned different time slots as well; depends on how many teams are involved. A limit may have to be imposed.

If I was to organize this thing, this would be some of my rules and regs. If I can think of some more I'll post them.

[Grizz]

OK, I think I'm gonna PUKE!

[MPHarper]

Jason,

Those are great I think that is generally what we have been thinking. Maybe we will adopt the OLN rules. I'm building some troughs to measure the fish.

[Trav]

Jason,

I think those rules are great. I watched some of the OLN Fly Fishing Masters this weekend.

Trav

[Tightloop]

Hey guys!

Sorry wasn't at the computer lately to help fill in the blanks.

So far here is were we are at.

#1 MPHarper has been awesome and we will be attempting to organize this in as professional, yet fun matter as we possibly can.

#2 We have got the rules clarified from the DWR, a permit may be required but I don't foresee too much of a problem with this being obtained.

#3 In the interest of keeping things fair we plan not to announce the location of the Tournament until a week before. However the date of the tournament will be announced much earlier so that appropriate plans can be made by contestants. This is so we don't create an unfair advantage. Be similar to hosting it on the green and letting green river guides compete.

#4 I know this one is kind of rough, but there MAY I repeat MAYBE a fee to enter. We are trying to make this as cheap and fun as we can however to get good prizes there may be some minor costs. So far an amount has not been decided, however what has been decided is that it will not be more then $30.00 per team ($15.00 each contestant).

#5 There will be a required clean up that must be attended and participated by all contestants. Failure to appear or participate will forfeit eligibility to compete. The Clean Up may be on a river separate then the one fished for the tournament.

#6 We will need volunteers for judging and probably the help of organizing and getting this thing live.

That is were we are at. This thing is still fairly new and we are trying to put all the pieces together. Thank you all for the advice and your ideas, they help us A LOT!

VOLUNTEERS NEEDED!!!!!!!!!! If you are interested in volunteering as a judge or anything else please let us know by dropping either MPHarper or myself an e-mail.

The idea of the Masters rules is great! Saves us a lot of effort and time into creating rules. This will be a great guideline and once we will discuss this and see if there is any modifications that may need to be made for the purpose of our "Utah's Dry or Die Tournament". (No its not the official name....... yet hehehe)

Of course all rules and stuff will be negotiable until the judges, MPHarper, and myself have reviewed and come to agree.

The idea of regional "qualifications" is a very good option we will be taking into consideration.

Nothing is in concrete as of yet, with the exception we will some how some way get this planned and it will be TONS OF FUN!

Keep the suggestions and comments coming.

[jim m.]

If there is an entrance fee have you considered a few bucks being set aside to support UtahOTF? The site is sort of facilitating this.

Just a thought.

[nightfish]

I'm curious on a couple of things...
...Will it be summer fishing? Spring? Fall?

...What about the regular pressure on the water? Say the Lower Provo, for instance...how are you going to set beats or stretches with non-participating fishers on the water?

...Will this be on medium to large streams? If smaller, say the cottonwood creeks, do you think they would be affected by the extra pressure?


I'm currently undecided if I'll compete, but I could probably help out in some way.

[Tightloop]

Those are some things that we are looking into.

As of now a date has not been set. A guess would be late spring/early summer for the date.

As far as other anglers - isn't "other anglers" a consistent battle that you find every day fishing most of our waters? why not leave it as part of the challenge? lol

One thing you can be sure of is that if the effects that the tournament would be neggative to a particular river, it will not be held there.

[Tightlinez]

since there is a cleanup involved, you may be able to include someof the other fishing organizations in this, i.e. trout unlimited, etc. Im not sure if that would be an advantage or not, but something to consider.

[Trav]

I think the question needs to be how big do you want to make this.

[Cary]

A turd is fast approaching this punchbowl!

Come on guys, do we really need an organized fishing contest? We're friggin flyfishers, I didn't know we did this sort of thing. Whats next, metalflake pontoon boats?

IMO, this type of thing is best left to OLN, ESPN, etc.

[ScottT]

Gotta go w/ Cary on this one.
Becoming a "Bassmaster Wannabe" isn't on my f/fishing goals list.

Scott

[carpman]

Cary..........

I'm suprised, a man as liberal as yourself, poo pooing this idea??? Who'd a thought???



Sounds like fun......

Tightloop, and MHarper, I hope you guys are into spending all of your free time to make this happen. It will take TONS of work, and not much in return......

That said good luck.......

[cardiac]

Originally posted by Cary
A turd is fast approaching this punchbowl!

Whats next, metalflake pontoon boats?



Metalflake pontoon boats....... I'm gonna give Scadden a call.
Cary, thanks for the idea!!!!!!!

[robinsoj]

Originally posted by cardiac
Metalflake pontoon boats....... I'm gonna give Scadden a call.
Cary, thanks for the idea!!!!!!!

And an outboard motor mount? I was going to get a trolling motor, but I think I'll just go right to the 225.

Hey look, this thread is closing!

[Cary]

Hey Carpman, I thought my post would bring you out of hibernation!

[Ouzel]

Rather then trying to make a big thing of the fishing competition let us remember that it is an outgrowth of the river clean up. Maybe in the years to come it may grow to something similar to the "One Fly" competion but for wading fly fishers. Maybe not.

The UOTF Traveling Trophy might not look like a normal trophy it could be an old tire from the clean up with a brass name plate epoxied to it with the winners name and year. I don't think a styrofoam worm container would last and of the other stuff that is often pulled out of the river, well, I just shudder.

For those who really want to get into competition a few from the Salt Lake Chapter could always contact the Gunslinger (Larry S.) and throw down the gaunlet to him and/or others.

I think for the first time around it should be kept pretty low key and informal. Kind of like learning to walk before you enter the 100 meter high hurdles in the Olympics.

BUT, none of what I said should keep anyone from getting together in person and hammering out a solid well thought out plan for a fishing competition.