Substituions...

[FlySmyth]

What this sport/hobby needs is a comprehensive substitution guide.

With that said here's my particular question and then a vague one...

When tying wd 40s can I use mallard flank instead of the recipes call for wood duck? It looks the same to me.

What specific substitutions can you think of? i.e. cdc instead of ??? or elk hair instead of ??? I think you get the idea.

Ken "The Fly Smyth" Raddon.

[steelie]

Flysmyth, you can use whatever you would like, its your fly. Let the fish decided if it works. I substitute all kinds of stuff, the flies I tie now aren't the same as they were a few years ago, simply because alot of the time, I use whatever is handy. The fish don't seem to mind. Whenever you hear people say things like "I wasn't getting any takes on the zebra midge with the silver wire, but when I switched to the one with the gold wire, I could do no wrong.....", don't believe it.

[Larry S.]

Here are just a few :

Mallard dyed Wood Duck is a replacement for the real thing. Cheaper and easier to come by

Caribou hair Instead of CDC

Antron yarn (Hi-Viz or any number of other synthetics) in place of calftail

Elk instead of deer, deer instead of elk, etc

Snowshoe rabbit makes for a good wing

I can go on and on and on but you can see where this is going.

Experiment.

[Mike]

It gets very complicated I think. You can often make a substitution based on the visual properties of 2 materials. However, many flies are tied with a specific material because of that material's physical properties. Take CDC... There aren't too many things that can be compared with CDC taking into account both the visual and physical properties of CDC.

Actually, just to contradict myself, I recall reading an article in FF about another type of feather that was a remarkable floater and sort of had a vaguely similar appearance -- but I can't think of what it was at the moment. But you can probably see what I mean.

A lot of materials are simply used out of tradition too. You can tie a pheasant tail style fly with a biot body. Jason ties an awesome looking PMD one, but then is it a pheasant tail? Is it a "yong special" if you don't use coats and clarke "summer brown?" A tough question! OTOH who the hell really cares? They're your flies right? Use whatever you want!

A substitution list would be a cool thing to look at though. I suppose if you didn't attempt to cover everything it wouldn't get too out of hand!

[steelie]

Originally posted by Larry S.

Elk instead of deer, deer instead of elk, etc




Take this for instance flysmyth, I bet I have a patch of fur off every deer-like animal from N. America, I honestly can't tell one from another. Staring at a 2"X2" patch, I can't remember which is a coastel deer flank and which is a whitetail shoulder patch, I just pick one that looks like it suites my current needs and start tying.....I'm sure half my Elk Hair Caddis are Deer Hair Caddis, but once again, the fish don't mind.

[Curtis Fry]

In my opinion, a lot of flies we tie up differently (like Mike mentions) are simply variations on different patterns -- that ultimately don't make a huge difference. Sometimes it does, but most of the time it doesn't, especially when dealing with tails like you mention.

I think sometimes I personally use the specific materials called for on a pattern just because it's a good excuse to go down to the fly shop and shoot the breeze and spend a few dollars. When it all comes down to it, I seriously doubt your fishing will be impaired whether you use Wood duck, mallard flank, partridge hackle, dun hackle tips, micro-fibbetts or whatever the heck else you can possibly think of for tailing material. Same applies in a lot of other cases.

To each his own....

[flyty]

My theory is this: you're going to end up with every material anyway, so you might as well get what the pattern calls for. For instance, I substituted mallard dyed wood duck in my wd40's, but eventually I ended buying wood duck feathers anyway for another pattern, and now I'm stuck with low rent wd40's. If I had just bought the wood duck in the first place, then I would have classy wd40's, and when I'm fishing the Green, I wouldn't have to duck behind a large rock out of embarrassment when another fisherman with the real deal saunters by. :(

[Trout4x]

If anybody laughs or makes fun of you for the equipment or material you are using then they are not even worth talking to.

Nobody should be embarrassed for what they are using to fish with.

[Fred]

Wood duck?

I've been using partridge on my WD40s.

Use whatever works. Try it without a tail at all and call it your own pattern. Tie it backwards.

Experimenting is part of the fun.

Seine the river and get some of the real mayfly numphs. Then, tell me if their tails look like wood or mallard or whatever. I bet it's hard to tell--for you and the fish.

[Dr. Trout]

I'm basically in agreement with you, but there is at least one example to your claim: fishing with Powerbait should be cause for embarrassment!

[Larry S.]

Then should they be called PTG40's? LOL

I like flyty's theory.......low rent flies.. that's good.

[Fred]

WD = wood duck?

i did not know that.

What does the 40 stand for?

[cheech]

Jason and I were just talking about this. He ties up a Carey Bugger, But because I did mine with an arctic fox tail instead of marabou, it isn't a Carey bugger anymore, so I can name it anything I like. I invented the thing, so I'll call it "Cheech's Arctic shamma-damma-ding-dong."

[MWSpearo]

I was in the same conversation with Jason and Cheech. I tied a Carey bugger but chose to use rabbit for the tail. There are lots of variations that you can make. I would agree that you need to be aware that color is not the only factor to look at. Different materials have different actions to them.

By the way Cheech, my Carey bugger caught more fish than your Carey bugger!

[Dr. Trout]

Last night I was tying zebra midges using red thread and black dubbing. I decided to try one with rust colored ice dubbing. I think I'll call it DT's B-I-BICKY-BYE-BO-BO G0!

[Larry S.]

I think the original was called the Wet Dream but for obvious reasons I think the name was toned down, probably to suit the Eagle Forum crowd in Utah County. ;0)

I read that somewhere................... no really............

[Fred]

You mean...Gayle Ruzeeeka likes to fly fish.

i wonder if she wants to hook up some time. She's one hot number...lol.

Thanks for the info Larry.

[Ouzel]

the original idea of the fly was to imitate an insect you see the fish eating.

If the various material you use imitates various parts of the fly then it does not matter if you use wood duck or mallard.

I try to keep in mind that most of the flies I see in books are made by tyers fishing in a different part of the country. That is helpful if I'm headed there but unless their BWO is the same shiloette and color as the BWO on my water maybe the only thing I'll learn is a different tying style.

[MWSpearo]

I think that materials don't matter at all.....

for example last night, Cheech and I were standing in the same boat fishing the same water to the same fish. We were using the same pattern. I tied mine with rabbit he tied his with fox. That was the only difference.

I caught 14

He caught 4

either the materials made a difference or......

[Utah DaveII]

Honestly I really think there is a slight difference in color between wood duck and dyed mallard. Before i got WD mallard worked great. Now that I got WD I really like tying with it. WD seems to have a trnslucent sheen on it and and the color has a little more brown it than olive. Does it make a difference to the fish? Probably not, but I prefer the WD>