Tying on small hooks

[THeBLender]

For the Midge Swap, I tied some #20 peacock herl emergers (see Tying section of this site). I had a problem crowding the eye of the hook.

I specifically have this question: between the thread base, the wire ribbing, the antron, and the peacock herl by trying to leave room to finish, I was forming a "ledge" just behind the eye and had to choose between trying to fill it with herl (which kept falling off the ledge and wouldn't wrap pretty) or leave a gap.

On that small a hook, where you have 3 or 4 layers of material, do you try to blend them down to the eye, fill the gap with thread as I tie off or what? If I tried to leave a gap instead of blending, which I couldn't do well, I always ended up bleeding over onto the eye as the last of my materials kept falling off the "ledge" (and I can barely get tippet into the eye of a hook <#18 anyway).

Suggestions (besides smaller tippet)?

[Mike]

This isn't really a specific answer to your question, but it's really important on smaller flies to use as little material as possible. Less is definitely more. Use at least 8/0 thread, only take as many wraps as needed to tie stuff down, use 5 antron fibers instead of 10, get the finest wire available... Tying small patterns can be a pain, but trying to tie them with a ton of materials can be almost impossible.

[Trouty]

Agree with Mike. Less is better. Small thread is a BIG +. Fewer wraps is key. figure out the fewest # of wraps to secure the material and don't do more.

I generally do better with sparse midges than with bulky ones.

[Crosby]

The no bulk midges- the best one anyone has- is the one that has picked up 10 fish and the body is totally falling apart- down to just thread and its catching more fish than ever. That happened again yesterday- no bull- went thru 3 flies that got to that point- again north of the border- actually took the clippers to the 3rd #24 adams and butchered it- worked like a charm. The guy at the power plant felt bad when he raised the water and came down to say he was sorry for doing it- I thanked him for the 5 hours he gave me.

[cheech]

I use Gordon Griffith's 14/0 thread a lot. It has the strength of 6/0, and doesn't bulk at all. Give it a shot, you might be changed forever.

Cheech

[jdubya]

That 14/0 Gordon's Griffiths is the best new find on my tying bench this fall. Glad that Fish Tech had it: I complained to Western Rivers for not having anything less than a 8/0.

Except maybe for my book shelf I built above the spool rack that now holds all of my books instead of them forming a reverse moat around my chair.....

[Ouzel]

0/14 is nice and prefered but 0/8 will still get it done.
Tie in one eye space behind the eye, then spin your bobbin counterclock wise to unspin the twist and flatten the thread. Then wrap back to the bend to start tying in your material.
This does two things, as you'll see, it gives the surface of the hook a texture so added material does not slip and a minimum stepdown when you get back to eye tie off.

[Curtis Fry]

I used to be a detail freak on the midges especially. After a while, I came to realize that "less is more" on midges. My best producing pattern now is two materials, not counting thread. I can tie a dozen of them in no time. Plus then you don't feel so bad when you lose a few in the jaw of a 20 inch pig.

I too like the 14/0 thread. Much easier to cinch down any foam or other small yet bulky parts to your fly.

[flyty]

Hi,

I thought I'd tie up "a hundred dozen peacock midge emergers to get to know the fly" and see if I could offer some advice--well, ok, I tied up one. Lately I've been tying up steelhead flies, and wow!! did that midge hook look small. Looking at the picture in the tying section and hearing of your problems gave me a plan of attack. Since the herl covers the front 1/3 of the hook, it hides anything under it and therefore gives you some room for all the tie ins.

Here are the materials I used:

Hook: #24 Tiemco 2487
Thread: olive UNI 8/0
Rib: Danville Fine Gold Wire
Wing: White Antron
Thorax: one strand of peacock herl

I started off by tying in the thread at the back of the thorax, 1/3 the distance in back of the eye, to minimize thread build up at the eye. Once I tied in the thread, I flattened it and wrapped to the back of the fly. Then I tied in the fine gold wire and to make the body a consistent thickness I lined up the end of the wire tie in with the back of the thorax. I found with the thread flattened, that I had to cover the wire tie in with two layers to keep it from showing through. Then I wrapped the rib, and tied it off just in front of the other end. For the wing, I tied in about ten strands of antron in front of the wire and wrapped the thread back a little until I was on top of the wire. To keep the antron butts out of the head area, after the first two wraps of thread towards the bend, I pulled on the wing tips to slide the end of the antron even with my first thread wrap.

With a fly that small I only used one strand from the eye of a peacock feather so it wouldn't be so bulky. Those strands are also the ones with the most brilliant colors. After cutting off two inches of the tip which is too fragile, I tied it in just in front of the wing tie in point. That gave me a smooth base overall, and I still had about one hook eye of bare hook in front of the thread base to tie off the peacock and whip finish. I covered the peacock with thread, wrapping back towards the bend, until I was at the start of the thorax area, and then I brought the thread forward covering the bare hook behind the eye. To finish the fly, I wrapped 3 turns of the peacock--which didn't slip, tied it off, and whip finished with 3 wraps.

I hope that helps.

(Man, does that midge look small next to my steelhead flies!)

[THeBLender]

Thanx. I figured out (after about 10 flies) that I needed to keep the wire back (out from under the herl) so it didn't bulk up too much. That also helped with the "ledge effect".

I've seen a couple of posts with tips about "flattening" the thread so I'm going to start experimenting with that more.

I don't want to start a(nother) debate about finishing, but you only used three turns? I had heard that you should use 5 turns twice for a secure fly. I would hate to use cement (I never have) but it would sux even worse if my carefully crafted fly fell apart after a few casts. Will three turns hold well?

[flyty]

I usually use 2 three turn whip finishes, and I've had zero problems with flies falling apart, but on small flies I only use 1 three turn whip finish and maybe a drop of head cement for insurance, but if you have the room make two whip finishes and forget about the head cement.

I haven't had much success with 5 turn whip finishes--my thread frays and breaks.

I think a good way to learn about flattening and twisting thread or "thread control" as it seems to be called in the tying world is to tie some Yong Specials. VFS used to have a good article with step by step instructions on how to tie it--I'll see if I can find it for you.

-----------------------------------
Yong Special:

http://rockymountainflyfishing.net/whattup/yongspecial.htm

You can also use flattened thread to get a different taper. For instance, following the instructions will give you a body that is fairly thick when you use Coats and Clark thread. If you label normal twisted thread a thickness of 1, flat a thickness of 1/2, and severely twisted thread a thickness of 1 1/2, then the directions give you a body that is 2 1/2 thick in the rear and 3 1/2 thick in the front. What if you want a narrower body and a smoother taper--like 2 and 2 1/2 instead? Follow the same instructions, but flatten your thread as soon as you start, and then twist it severely only after you get to the hook bend. If you try the second method, you'll get a good workout in thread control.

Thread Control article:

http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/threadct.htm
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One of the better tricks I learned from the thread control articles is when you are trying to make a loose loop of thread over some material at a precise location so that you can then snap the thread tight and lock down the material, sometimes that loose loop will want to flop forward and you can't get it to lay over the precise location you want--it's very frustrating, especially on small flies. But, if you untwist the thread a few spins(counter clockwise), the loop will flop in the opposite direction right up against your thumb where you want it.

Does anyone else have any good thread control tricks?

[Mike]

I'll use 2 or 3 wraps on a whip finish and no head cement for small flies if space is at a premium. I rarely have any problems with flies falling apart. When you can afford to do more whip finishes, do so... I do 4 separate 5 wrap whip finishes on my clouser minnows -- which are then coated in head cement.

P.S. If your thread is fraying when doing whip finishes, get a little saliva on your fingers and apply it to your thread and then whip finish. That will solve most of your problems.

[nightfish]

You can also do an internal cement job. Before you start the whip, touch a light drop of cement to the thread, then finish. The glue gets caught under the wraps and penetrates through.