Klamath Fish Kill Tragedy

[MOKE]

Taking Jasons suggestion I am restarting this discussion in a new name.

( link to original thread: http://www.utahonthefly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2896 )
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The Bush Camp Speaks

Since I risk upsetting you all with my commentary, I present the "official" version.
I let this article speak for itself. This issue will obviously be tied up in the courts for years to come.

Without further comment I present...... The White House version.

**See below this article for real flow info**
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New York Times on the Web

U.S. Sees No Tie to Water Plan in Deaths of Fish in California
By DEAN E. MURPHY

SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 2 — Federal officials said today that at least 20,000 chinook salmon and other fish died in the Klamath River in northern California in the last two weeks, but they were unwilling to attribute the deaths to water flows that had been diverted to farmers.

Steve Williams, director of the Fish and Wildlife Service, said the kill peaked last week. Mr. Williams said things began to improve on Saturday, well before emergency releases of water from the Upper Klamath Lake in southern Oregon reached the so-called dead zone of the lower river on Monday.

The timing of that turnaround, he said, left open the question of how much low water flows in the river contributed to the fish kill, which biologists say was the largest in memory.

Early this year, estimates were that 130,000 chinook salmon would enter the mouth of the Klamath this spawning season.

"It is important we don't jump to conclusions or draw conclusions until we have a chance to thoroughly go through this information," Mr. Williams said.

Early laboratory tests show that most of the fish died of suffocation due to infections that damaged their gills. Federal and state biologists said that the organisms that caused the infection are common throughout the river, but rarely have they led to so many deaths.

Last week, biologists with the California Department of Fish and Game said the diseases were spreading in part because so many salmon were crowded into small pools of water. They recommended that substantially increased flows of water be released into the river for extended periods at least through next April.

So far, however, federal officials have agreed only to additional flows of water for two weeks. Sue Ellen Wooldridge, counselor and deputy chief of staff in the Department of Interior, said to do more would endanger sucker fish in the Upper Klamath Lake.

"The Catch-22 is if someone is calling for some water out of the Upper Klamath Lake for salmon downstream, we will be in violation of the biological opinion in the lake," Ms. Wooldridge said. "That is not possible."

Ms. Wooldridge and Mr. Williams spoke during a telephone news conference after Mr. Williams sent a letter about the findings to a government advisory group on the Klamath created this year by President Bush. Water allocations in the Klamath basin have been the source of a fierce dispute among people in the area, with farmers on one side and anglers, environmental groups and several Indian tribes on the other.

In March, the Bush administration was seen to tip the balance in favor of the farmers by adopting a plan that assures large amounts of water are reserved for irrigation. Opponents of the plan predicted it would be devastating for the river and its fish, and today they reacted angrily to the suggestions that higher water levels in the river might not have made a difference for the salmon.

"The main reason that the fish kill started to decline before the slug of water got to the lower river is because the majority of the fish had been dead by then," said Glen Spain of the Pacific Coast Federation of Fishermen's Associations, one of the groups opposed to the diversion of large amounts of water to irrigation. "It is incredibly disingenuous of them to cite that the rate is going down. When you have a population and kill off 50 percent, your death rate is going to go down."

Mr. Spain joined the leaders of several other groups from the Klamath River region, including Sue Masten, chairwoman of the Yurok Indian Tribe, and Representative Mike Thompson, the area's congressman, in delivering 500 pounds of the dead salmon outside the Interior Department's offices in Washington. Mr. Thompson and the others called on Gale A. Norton, the secretary of the interior, to increase flows and rejuvenate the river.

But Ms. Wooldridge seemed to leave little room for reconsidering the administration's Klamath policy. Asked in the telephone news conference whether the fish kill had shaken the administration's confidence in its water plan, she replied tersely, "The answer is no."

Susan Holmes, the legislative representative for Earthjustice Legal Defense Fund, one of several groups suing the Department of Interior over the Klamath plan, said it was misleading for Ms. Wooldridge to cast the Klamath water question as a battle for resources between salmon downstream and the sucker fish in the lake.

It is the department's own plan, Ms. Holmes said, that set the levels for the lake — and that the lawsuit challenges as inappropriate.

"She is ducking behind a biological opinion that came from the Department of Interior, and that we said would kill salmon," Ms. Holmes said, referring to Ms. Wooldridge. "They are doing everything they can to dance around giving more water to the fish. The fish need water. This is a concept you learn somewhere around kindergarten and the Bush administration needs to catch up."

Mr. Williams said that it was not uncommon for "individual experts to have disagreements," but that in the end, people would have to wait for a definitive answer about what happened on the Klamath.

"This is a complex system," he said. "There are a lot of factors that could have contributed, that interact with one another, and it takes some time to sort that all out."


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/03/nation

"The Spin Is In"

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This link is to a thread that has the real flow data from the affected area for several years.
http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=158057
This info was provided by Willie of the ncffb forum. (Also UOTF member)
There are other years / flows posted in this thread as well.
This info is crucial to the development of an opinion in this discussion. I provide it for those that are interested in developing an opinion on this tragedy.

Thanks for the time.
MOKE

[jdubya]

http://www.oregonlive.com/special/klamath/

[MOKE]

This is an update to the Klamath River Fish Kill bungling.....

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As posted by Vanim Plutor of NCFFB;


Klamath Flows Dropped

Posted By: Vanim Plutor
Date: 10/14/02 9:26 a.m.


The "2-weeks" of increased water flows on the Klamath have ended. Over the last few days, releases have ramped down by about 40%. The current release is about 15% above the earlier (before/during the fish kill) levels.

These 2-weeks of higher flows may have served only to flush those carcasses out to sea. If a new wave of fish came in during these last weeks, they will soon find themselves high and dry.... or at least in hot water.

Will the 2-week flow increase do more harm than good?
Did the flow increase serve PR needs, not environmental ones?

vanim

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Its sad to think that the increased flows were purely to take the heat off this administrations gross error.
My, how quickly they think we forget.
There were lots of endangered siver salmon and steelies in this kill also, though not mentioned.
At least the night time temps are beginning to drop.
Days mid to high 70's. Nights in the 40's.

MOKE

[ticketP1]

This is pure $%&$#@### crap!
Gayle Norton is simply a figurehead in leadership of the DOI. Even if we had someone with environmental interests in command of the DOI, they would be powerless to our elected (?) commander and chief. If you're interested in the health and welfare of our fisheries and environment in general, look closely at who you are voting to elect. I hate to say this but ANYONE who voted Shrub into office has noone to blame but him or herself. Don't complain. This is simply the bottom line in what we get as Americans for our failure to recognize who stands for the environment vs who has other agendas. I know I'll draw fire here but it really does deal with fishing and it totally pisses me off.

Sidenote (non-ff-ing):
Ever since the present administration has been in place Utah has been hit w/ 3 geophysical exploratory proposals to go in and hammer fragile ecosystems with thumper truck technology. This is also major f-$%^^#$@##-ing horse dooky! You should see the bang up job this does on the land! It pisses me off that these proposals are met with open extended arms from the Bureau of Livestock and Mining. But they are powerless, antiquated, underfunded, and and more or less non-progressive thinking govt ass draggers...They've been beaten down by the present command... Toadies if you will. Think that wouldve been the case 5 yrs ago? Don't bet on it. A govt agencies track record (be it positive or negative) of proactive environmental policy is in direct coorelation to our executive branch powers that be.

I'm frikn' out!

[Ouzel]

the original issue about the use of what water was available was to either use that currently limited resource to water thousands of acres of land to grow food for people and livestock that we eventually eat.

Does the unhappy death of 20,000 -30,000 fish outweigh the thousands of tons of livestock feed and food for people?

Do we value our sport fishing or fish more then family farms?

What about the welfare of those women and children on those farms? What about the men on those farms trying to provide for their loved ones.

Farming (providing food) is at the very core of human need and therefore our enconomy.

Economically we have always been able to grow much more useable foodstuff from the land then we have been able to provide from the sea.

Currently water is in short supply. The limited resource was used for the overall good for the most people.

We all would chop down beautiful trees to provide shelter and heat for our families rather then hold on to them for their viewing pleasure.

Decisions affecting a community most have opponents who have their own interests at heart rather then the overall good of the community.

I don't know any of those people and none of what has happened will effect me personally. But if I were living there I would hope I would be able to cut away my emotions and look to use a resouce for the most people.

I would hope I cherished the welfare of farm families and the women and children more then the fish.

For others 'out there', I present this; Today, are you going to work to provide for your families or are you going fishing?

You can't do both, you need to decide what is best for the most people. Simple decision really.

Now expand it to a community or a section of a state or larger. It is still simple, just larger.

What is best for the most people?

[Crosby]

One more time: there you go again Ouzel---------- being logical.
Glad you were with me Sunday- but you crapped on a rock I knealt on. (0:

[Indylab]

There is much merit to that argument, however, it would be great economically for many, many people to drill all over the lower 48 and Alaska. Should we do it? I for one don't think so. We grow and produce much more than we as a nation ever come close to using - waste! Farming surplus is a huge detriment to our economy (most economists believe this). All those potatoes grown in Idaho using water from the snake - these potatoes, much of them, stored, never sold and wasted - surplus waste! I think we need to grow what we need and pay more attention to the ecosystem.

[Ouzel]

Glad you were able to get out on the water, sorry about the deposit.

Indy: I am quite familar with the petroleum industry and middle east oil is much older and more usable then the high sulfur crude off the north slope and other 'local' pools. Therefore our refining equipment stays cleaner and runs longer, ergo more efficient production and lower costs overall.
Another cold fact is a government (nation) needs to plans 50, 100, 200 years down the road to be still in business and have resources. We are using theirs up and keeping ours in our collective back pocket so our childrens, childrens, childrens, etc. will still have heat in the winter time.

Farmers have been refered to as "our most basic gamblers". They plant in spring, hoping, the weather won't smack them down, hoping, bugs and disease don't destroy the fields, and hoping, months in the future, there will be a good buying market at harvest time. Basically they get ONE paycheck a year to care for their families. But if his crop is good so likey is his neighbors, and his neeighors, etc. Then a lot of similar foodstuffs hit the market at the same time and drives prices down. Maybe he'll make enough to keep the farm going, maybe not. Yes, we do allow them leeways, if you will, we absolutely need people growing food for all of us.
Future farming is of course going corporate (Agri-businesses) and that is proving to be more efficient as was Farm Co-ops and the corner growcery store is now a Super Wal-Mart.

For those who feel I lack emotion involvement about these issues I can say I do not.

I do freely admit I sometimes get emotional about the "logic" used in problem solveing.

It always comes back to "What is most efficient?" & "What is best for the most people?".

And yes, Indy, we do need to pay more attention to the ecosystem; it is the only one we have.

[Dustin]

I agree with what Ouzel is saying. What dictates the policy of most environmental groups is emotion. While I agree that we need to protect our resources, it has to be a logical decision.

If the "environmentalists" had their way, we would not be fighting a war anywhere, but protecting a native slug in the country we should be shelling the h*** out of. While I know this is going to start a firestorm, this post also applies to the nay sayers for the Provo Canyon Project; however, I will post my opinions on that thread.

[Kevin Conlin]

I would be more inclined to buy Ouzel's arguments if we weren't growing rice and cotton in the desert. Much of the farmers' plight is the direct result of government policies that have encouraged the farmers to grow just a few select crops regardless of market demand or local growing conditions. Trying to undo the damage by dewatering rivers is just plain stupid.

[Ouzel]

Your right, but few systems are without fault and especially those that politicians get there hands on.
Water, and air, are our most important resources; we can't live without them.
Inappropriate farming practices like drilling DEEP wells to get at 2 million year old water in arid climates is nothing more then extemely short sighted.
Raising too many cattle on the land is also unbright.

Until we bring population under control its demands will continue and so will the problems.

[Wyoming2utah]

"His specialty was alfalfa, and he made a good thing out of not growing any. The government paid him well for every bushel of alfalfa he did not grow. The more alfalfa he did not grow, the more money the government gave him, and he spent every penny he didn't earn on new land to increase the amount of alfalfa he did not produce. Major Major's father worked without rest at not growing alfalfa."
--Joseph Heller (Catch 22)

I wasn't going to get into this but, here goes...I think that this whole mess sounds like one big Catch-22--what was good for some was bad for somebody else. I don't, however, think for a single second, though, that this whole fish kill couldn't or shouldn't have been avoided. Somewhere, in the middle of the whole fiasco, there was a middle ground that should have been reached where fishermen, local businessmen dependent on a salmon run, fly shop owners, ranchers, farmers, politicians... whatever/whoever could have all been appeased. But, in reality, it didn't happen; therefore, the Bush administration screwed up...there, I said it. I am a proud republican and someone who wouldn't have voted differently even after the kill...god knows what happens when a democrat is in office (Bill Clinton LOL!).

Ouzel, I am not buying what you are saying...at least what I think you are saying. Do you mean to tell me that if the water wasn't released from the reservoir humans would have died? Do you mean that lives would have been lost? Do you mean that food would not have been on people's tables? I am sorry, but if the ranchers or farmers in the area don't have the natural resources to feed their families, then maybe they should have an alternate means of providing...maybe they should do what I must do. If there isn't enough money find another job!

This situation reminds me of the farmer in Pine Valley who shot several dozen deer because the DWR wouldn't compensate him more for his losses...why is it that our wildlife always takes a seat to farmers and ranchers who are never forced to deal with the difficult situations mother nature applies?

[ticketP1]

...destabilizing situation of global unrest w/ war looming on the horizon, foreign relations turned sour, inability to grasp concept of global warming while actual global warming occurs under his very nose, market crash, escalating pressure to drill ANWR, thumper trucks running amuck in S Utah, international laughing stock of a Alfred E Neuman-look-alike-party-animal-president turned good decent southern babtist boy causing embarsment for US tourists travelling overseas, 20,000 salmon gone belly-up on the Klamath with numbers expected to rise soon as the next wave starts swimming up, gotta keep those dryland farmers subsidized, screw the fish!

God help a republican for changing his mind.

<Sorry, couldn't help it! Please don't get the axe out...I'll shut up>

[Cary]

Originally posted by Wyoming2utah
", ...god knows what happens when a democrat is in office (Bill Clinton LOL!).

Well, for one thing, my 401k looked alot better.

[MOKE]

Man, who needs me to get you guys all riled up? Y'all do fine on your own!
;) ....Perks my (.)(.)

Now to the fishery damage and the local ag economy.
Wyoming2Utahs post quote says it all!
Its a desert area like Utah. The crops are alfalfa and potatoes. And major subsidies.
This could be eliminated and allowed to return to a wet land sump as nature intended it to be.
Bird watchers traveling makes our attempts at travel seem like college road trips The area could be self sustaining just on tourism if the river and lake was allowed to return to its natural state.
My good friend found a rare bird in my area, and people came from around the world to see one bird! My buddy was also printed up in any number of birding journals....This is a serious high $$ business.

How many farmers are attracting people from out of the area to watch the potato blossoms burst ? ;)


401K plans hurting?
Thats because most Americans memory span is about as short as can be measured in micro seconds, or maybe media soundbytes?
Shrub sr. left us in the same crapper, what makes you think his offspring would do any different?
If you don't learn from history then you are doomed to repeat it.
I read the writing on the wall before the appointment of the present admin.
Hmmmm, that was when the market was at its high :)

QARI.......
$225 billion BEFORE they start throwing thier stones!


So the kids they dance
And shake their bones,
And the politicians throwin' stones,
While its all to clear we're on our own
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.
GD

MOKE.....wishing for a compassionate nation.

[Fred]

"I read the writing on the wall before the appointment of the present admin. Hmmmm, that was when the market was at its high :)"

I guess Bush is to blame for Worldcomm, Enron, 9-11, the Internet bubble, record consumer loan defaults, the collapse in the telecomm sector, housewives figuring out they should't trade biotech stocks, and all the other problems that caused corporate profits and Wall Street to crash? Or, maybe those were problems left behind after the 8 years governed by the previous administration? Hmmmmm?

Maybe people realized that the free ride was over--i.e. the days of excess and greed were coming to an end--when Slick got his willy out of the office? The bubble was gonna burst? Just a thought.

I don't have any strong opinions about Bush or Clinton, Republicans or Democrats, or any of it really. But if you think the market crashed because of Bush, you do not understand the chain events that led to the creation of the bubble in the stock market, and it's eventual collapse. Had very little to do with politics.

But, what this has to do with fishing, I don't know. I think I liked being blind to what's going on a little better.

[MOKE]

It was a simple statement of fact.
Most Americans don't learn from our past, so they are doomed to repeat it.

I should have said....Because of these "Lunatic Fringe" sites that seem to irritate some folks so much----I was able to rescue my scrimped for savings before they disappeared. I learned from the past, so I was able to avert damage!
Is this po_itically correct enough for your apparently thin skin?
And quite frankly Fred, you just made more po_itical waves than I did in this thread.
With all the other folk slamming our fearless leader, why did you pick such a simple sentence to vocalize on?
Which part of my posting style raises the most hackles?
I thought that mine was rather a benign statement after so many other words of contempt in other members prior posts.

So this posting continues to relate to FF.
STEELHEAD....THE Hardest Fighting Trout!! And Silver Salmon....'Nuff said.
This is a national issue, and could as well be called water insanity.
The farm lands that are killing this river would not be missed in the slightest.
Another poster said it well.
"Those Idaho potatoes go into storage, then to rot".
Same thing in Oregon / Nor Cali.
Scrap out a single bomber, and buy out the farms, and return the area to nature.
(probably too simple and idealistic though)

This river if allowed could be as good a destination spot as Alaska!, and only a short drive away. Steelhed and Silvers!!! within driving distance!!!
You all have the Green R. to be concerned about....fed control.
And all the other fed projects in your state, which is a vast #.
All it would take is the stroke of a pen to kill off alot of your opportunities.
This particular issue, Klamath, is a micro picture of a larger issue being mishandled, for profit and po_itical favors.

Peace
MOKE

[MOKE]

I wasn't trying to do any trolling in this thread.
You know my trolling style.....really long posts, with all kinds of interesting / irritating links, (depending on your beliefs).
Like I said, I thought my comment to be rather benign in comparison to some other expressed opinions.
I think the problem is....I said it. ;)

MOKE

oh yeah.... 8-)( ....kisses!

[Fred]

I worked on Wall Street in the late-1990s. So that comment caught my attention.

Sorry. Should have kept quiet about it.

[MOKE]

Fred

Peace and peace :)
Nothing meant, nothing taken.
Big slobbery wet puppy licks for you!

MOKE

[ticketP1]

"I thought that mine was rather a benign statement after so many other words of contempt in other members prior posts."
-from previous post

That would be me. Assuming full responsibility here. Wouldn't take anything back either. But was perhaps a bit tangential. Anyhow it shouldn't matter because they're just words.

Despite the fact that I have never visited the Klamath River,
this travesty to me is a pretty horrific scenario - thousands of dead formerly beautiful creatures - all on account of corporate greed. Words don't describe my present state of mind regarding this matter. Its sickening.

Where are the damn lawyers when you need them? This one needs to get on the fast track.

[jdubya]

I note you live in Dugway. What do you think about USU's idea to build a BSL-4 biological containment facility at Dugway to work on the various nasty viruses in the world? Do you and your neighbors think this is a good thing? Doesn't have much to do with fishing, but......

[MOKE]

What we need is a superhero....like the Tick, who can swoop down and smite the true evil-doer! :)

TicketP1
Your reaction was one of the ones that I would consider as being proper for this circumstance. I support your stance completely.

Terrorism comes in many forms, to many creatures on this planet. Unfortunately this river is a victim of such.

MOKE

[ticketP1]

Can't comment. Big bros watching my every move and listening to my every word (this place is so frikin X-Files). Besides, if I tell you I'll have to kill you... :) Just jokin... I'll e-mail you.

[MOKE]

TicketP1 makes a good point in saying that he has never been there.
So.....a little 'splainin about the area.

This area is quite similar to anything you would find in the great basin, especially the Provo R., with the exception that the Klamath flows to the sea, and not the Salt Lake.
So imagine if yu will...Having a large run of quality fish trying to get up the Jordan R., past Utah lake, and into the Provo canyon and Heber Valley.
The migration would be killed off around the point of the mountain area.

The area in the headwaters of the Klmamth is typified by vast stretches of sagebrush and "pronghorn terrain", surrounded by mountains, both the coastal range and the southern Cascades. The snowmelt and rains finds its way down to a natural sump....Klamath Lake. The river flows out of Klamath lake and enters into a huge canyon system terminating at the ocean. This canyon system is deep and wooded, (at least it used to be wooded).

The problem at present is the stored water is in large, shallow reservoirs that act as heat sinks. This warmed water has lost the ability to hold dissolve oxygen. It is then released from the TOP of the dam, with no mixing of temps that you find on the Green.

The similarities to the Provo are that these rivers flow into lakes that are large and shallow. This results in downstream flows that are not fitting for the trout / salmonids cultural requirements.

The river has also lost much of its cooling springs due to deep well pumping of the upstream water table.

With a little effort this area could well be a rival to Alaska in a fishing sense.
It still supports wild runs of Silver Salmon and Steelhead, and other salmon,
and also supports sea run cutthroat in its lower reaches despite the best efforts of humans to kill it off.

I hope this helps bring this area into slightly clearer mental imaging.

peace
MOKE

[Kevin Conlin]

I'll take a BSL-4 lab over a Magcorp any day. Minute theoretical risks just don't bother me when compared to the provably noxious stuff that gets dumped by the ton. Yes, I'd work in a BSL-4 lab.

[jdubya]

First, that this was to be run by USU when I can think of many, many more appropriate groups (including the U and BYU in Utah) and, second, the seeming need to bury this on a federal army base where it would be much better located on an academic campus (which is where Harvard and Berkeley will most likely locate theirs). I would like to see a BSL-4 at the U med school if for no other reason than to be able to study hanta virus...

But it is moot 'cause USU dropped the bid....

[THeBLender]

build an entirely new lab to deal with this kind of nasty stuff in a different place when they already have an infrastructure in place (due to the chemical depot) to deal with the potential risks?

Not that I'm unwilling to have Tooele share the, uh, "privilege"...

[jdubya]

in their haste to prove they are tough on terror, the gov't poured 1.5 billion into the construction of such "new" labs without really thinking about the consequences. nothing really new there....

[THeBLender]

I guess I was asking:

Why would you want them to build a totally new facility (at the U or BYU) and waste (?) part of that 1.5 bil when there is already an infrastructure in Tooele county?

[jdubya]

with access to the roof for ventilation, good locks, and low foot traffic. a lot easier to build that and maintain that in a current building than it would be to have to move the scientists each day to dugway (no offense to anyone who does live there: but not many "world class" scientists will want to move there)

[THeBLender]

that way you guys can have hunta virus in your backyard instead of me! Its a win-win situation :)

[ticketP1]

Blender makes the point I tried to convey to you earlier. You appear to have some issue buggin' on ya.
Theres infrastructure already in place.
Also theres the sentiment of the populace...and they have every right. NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard
Why do you want this crap anywhere where potential safety, health and ecological risks (social chaos notwithstanding) outway its research benefits?
Not to mention a somewhat blatant slam on USU but as previously stated to you in e-mail I don't know anything about that institution (other than the fact that they're Aggies).
Folks out here in this state freak out over Flouride. Ebola/hanta/anthrax...oh now theres a great alternative!
As stated earlier there are facilities as well as PhDs out here in place. Whatever agenda thats driving your train is overriding the assumed community belief in that "we" don't want this.

[ticketP1]

many of us live out here...this isnt A51.
we have extra buildings too

[MOKE]

An up date article.
To save bandwidth, this is a link to the article on the Nor Cali forum.
http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=161382

MOKE

[jdubya]

no big surprise here:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/827034.asp?cp1=1

[Kevin Conlin]

Turns out there's a Utah connection to the Klamath fish kill. According to this month's Scientific American, Rep. Hansen heads up a committee to inject more "scientific empiricism" into the decision-making process under the Endangered Species Act. What this seems to mean is using the natural uncertainty in the scientific process to reach whatever conclusions happen to be on one's agenda. Last year was a drought year for the Klamath but the ESA kept water flowing; the fish did ok but area farmers did not. This year, under the new criteria, it was impossible to prove that last year's flows benefitted the fish, so the farmers got the water and the fish did not.

[Indylab]

The world is a better place with him no longer in office.

[jdubya]

that is the one silver lining of this years elections.....