UTOF SLC meeting-Yong wannabe

[flyty]

Hi,

What type of bead do I need--tungsten, silver, nickel? Also, what size beads do I need for various hook sizes? What size patterns should I tie--I'm specifically interested in Green River sizes?

For the Coats and Clark thread, do you need a special bobbin to handle the large spools?

Thanks, I enjoyed seeing all the great patterns.

[MOKE]

Flyty

Craft stores have large selection of glass beads which are popular in tying.
Try there for lots of different supplies.
Someone here hit it on the head....Guy crafts :)

MOKE

[Fred]

There are no beads in Yong flies.

Am I wrong?

[flyty]

Not in the Yong patterns, but there is a bead head in the:

"Yong wannabe"

Presumably, it aspires to be a Yong pattern.

[MOKE]

Personally I miss the point of where Yong flies are so original?
That is nothing new in a tying style, yet he sticks his name on them.
Maybe I've been tying too long, and have become jaded by all the newly claimed old original copies out there.
Does anybody else see these as a thread body Brassie by chance?

Flyty....
I like 11/0 glass beads for my small patterns, you can get smaller beads though.
I like glass beads because of the depth of transparency and colors.
On the tungsten and other metal fly tying beads they will give you a hook size range.

Fred....
In my weird little world of fly tying....anything goes, including beads on segmented midge larvae patterns.

I'm thinking about claimng the Adams , or maybe the Wooly Bugger as my creations ;)

MOKE

[flyty]

MOKE,

Spririt River seems to be the brand of beads carried in the local fly shops. There is no hook size indicated, and the beads aren't sized using the scale you mentioned--11/0. They are sized in 32nds, 64ths, and mm.

Another problem I came upon tonight as I was tying my first Pheasant Tail nymphs was the directive to tie the head with copper wire. How do I secure the copper wire once I've formed the head?

[MOKE]

Glass beads carry the designation of the */0, and the higher the number the smaller the bead. 11/0 works for apprx size 18-22.

You will need to figure out which metal bead LOOKS appropriate for the fly size you are tying. Just keep trying to place the largest bead on the hook until you cant get the bead past the bend.
The shops will help you out.

On the PT Nymph....It sounds like you are tying the Sawyer or Traditional PT Nymph?
See Nymphing Tutorials x2 thread, for how to tie these patterns.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~innatedoc/Sawyer%20Pheasant%20Tail.htm
Traditionally the head just gets the wire twisted down tightly.

Its perfectly acceptable to vary from tradition, and incorporate some tying thread in the fly. Unless you are one of those tweekos that has to stay to pure tradition.

Good Luck!
MOKE

[Greg M]

In my PT Bomber that I tied at the meeting I use the tungsten bead heads as I am going for the dive bomber effect. I made a couple of other alterations to your typical PT fly by adding the longer legs from the body and tying them underneth to imatate legs, like on a soft hackel.

I cannot take credit for inventing the bead head PT, duh. But I will say that my PT bomber has caught more fish in the last two years then any other fly (dry or wet) that I have used in that same time.

Including fly's tied by MOKE. Sorry Moke you lose.

In case you are interested here is my recipe.

Bead Head Pheasant Tail (#16)
• Hook: Tiemco 3761 #16
• Bead Head: 1/8 tungsten, brass
• Thread: Brown 6/0 waxed
• Tail: 6 pheasant tail fibers; tied at the bend of the hook tips pointing out.
• Body: 10 pt fibers; tied in tip first at hook bend then wrapped 2/3 up the shank, do not trim the excess it creates the legs.
• Wrap: Med. Copper wire (reverse wrap to body)
• Thorax: 6-8 inch peacock herl, wrapped heavy
• Wing case: PT fibers from body drawn over the thorax and tied down
• Legs: PT fibers from wing case tied down, this is the key step, you need to hold the legs down under the body while placing LOTS of wraps around the legs and a short distance up the thorax. The end effect will be dangling legs and a thread neck just behind the bead head.

Any questions drop me an email: gmciff@bigplanet.com

[MOKE]

Quoting Greg M;

A)
"I cannot take credit for inventing the bead head PT, duh. But I will say that my PT bomber has caught more fish in the last two years then any other fly (dry or wet) that I have used in that same time".

B)
"Including fly's tied by MOKE. Sorry Moke you lose".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MOKE Reply;
A) Your PT Bomber is a standard tie for a BHPT nymph renamed to PT Bomber.
This helps make my point about renaming flies and taking credit for them...sorry.

B) I lose....? I'm totally "lost" here?
I have never claimed to be a greatly innovative tier. I don't often quest to reinvent the wheel as so many others.
My personal flies are generally the epitome of crude representation. I carry alot of a few patterns.
My winging material for most of my personal dry flies is polypropylene yarn sheared to fit the size of fly. Crude simple representation of a wing.

I personally feel that some people spend way too much time in the minutae of detail. This is great for catching fishermen, but doesn't always prove effective at fooling fish.
The PT nymph is a good pattern to be sure, but it is just another *attractor type* pattern.
There are much more realistic pattern for baetis than the PT, such as Jasons baetis nymph featured on the home page. Or the WD 40 or Mercer micro may nymphs.

I will take claim for what I call my Spring Creek Legging technique for nymphs.
I've tied this style of legging for decades now, and it is far more realistic than standard leg hackling, leg creating techniques. I have never seen anyone else using this technique that I didn't teach.
Rememeber the day on the ditch on the mid "P" when Keith & I killed 'em?
That was the Spring Creek Legged PT vs. the standard PT.

Placement of the bead at the head of the fly might be rethought as well.
The gas bubble that is formed in the natural isnt at the head of the insect.
It forms up in the thorax on mays and other insects.
So try placing your bead in the thorax area for a different and highly effective style.
This is something I do all the time....do I claim celebrity for creating this? No
I just readjusted the position of the bead. Someone else introduced beads into flies, they deserve the credit.

This is going on way too far, I'm shutting up now.
Somehow this thread wandered from a midge imitation question into a mayfly nymph PT discussion.

MOKE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now for the sake of the curious.
SPRING CREEK LEGGING by MOKE

Is a soft hackling technique that is done with your favorite soft hackle material. I like starling because of its color and cheapness. Partridge is also great.
Find the appropriate size feather and strip off the waste.
Tie the feather onto the hook shank by the tip, with the cup of the feather up. You will want the large shaft end of the feather to be pointed to the bend of the hook.
This feather is layered above the thorax material, and below the wing case material.

So.....you dub your thorax in, fold the legging feather forward and tie it off, then bring your wing case material forward to finish this body area.

In the finished fly, the legging material shaft is parralel to the hook shank, and the fibers are perpendicular to the hook shank like the real insect. The legs in the finished fly will be arched down and back, much like the natural
This is a much more real representation of legs than cut off PT stubs, or any rotary style legging.

(if anyone knows of this technique prior to the early 70s..let me know)

[Larry S.]

I know that Dennis Brown from here in Cache Valley has incorporated the very same that you have described by placing the bead (bubble) farther back into the thorax area on several of his fly patterns. Did he "invent" the style? I doubt it and I don't think he takes full credit for it either but he did get a hook named after him ( Daiichi 1250 "Glass Bead Hook") and he has created a lot of interesting patterns.

[RAW]

I know of guys who go to a tying show and then go back to their "home area" and tie the "new" flies they have learned about but never mention where and who they learned it from. They just let people assume they came up with the idea. IMO I think we should mention these things when tying.

I love to take "new" materials and use old tying techniques. Or take old materials and use "new" techniques. Does this mean the flies created should all bear my name? Does this mean I'm an originator or an innovator? I think there's a difference between originating and innovating.

It seems that no matter how well we think we tie a particular pattern, there is always someone who ties it better. I used to get a little frustrated when I thought I had the corner on a particular technique and pattern only to have someone else show me their version, which inevitably looks better than mine. There are fabulous tiers out there now. Back in the 30's thru 70's you were raised to MASTER status if you could tie flies. I think to a degree that raised level is diminished somewhat now because of all the talented tiers around. And when you think you've got a pretty good imitation tied, inevitably someone will say, "Why do you waste all that time makin' that fly so purdy? The simple flies catch more fish. I catch all my fish on a scaggly ol' Hare's Ear."


Moke: Thanks for the explaination on that leg method. I'm going to try it on some stone nymphs!

[MOKE]

RAW
This leg technique is killer on stone or mayfly nymph, and some caddis....free crawler style. You need a wing case to hide it under.
Try tying a few PT or HE patterns and check them out.
It'll add a whole new realm of effectiveness to some old patterns.
I love this technique for big azz nasty pteranarcys critters.
Or the lilliputian sized micros.

Greg M
I meant no disrespect about your fly...I've followed in the "vacuum like void" left by a guy, you, that has a high amount of confidence in his pattern.
Well done.

MOKE....continuing the self torture in not fishing :(

[Fred]

"with the cup of the feather up"? Wouldn't the cup of the feather be down to make the legs look real? I don't get that method of tying in legs.

Also, I know glass beads are cheaper, but they don't add any weight. Great for dry flies, but I'd rather spend a little extra for a solid bead. And, I've always assumed mine represented the head, not a bubble.

But this thread kind of goes back to another thread where I asked "how many flies do you really need"? I guess it depends on what you enjoy doing. If you like to tie a bunch, then you're probably going to experiment a little bit more. If you tie just for your fishing trips, you might choose to narrow your focus and tie the ones that work best.

I like to use old familiar patterns and then just vary it a little bit. That way, I can say I invented it. Then I like to yell, "that's another fish on the Fred Special!" Just kidding. Experimenting is part of the fun, but it's nice to have the standbys so you can fish with more confidence.

[MOKE]

TIED IN CUP UP,.... But will become cup down when you fold the feather forward. As it is folded forward 180 degrees over itself, the legs point down and back.
The critical point is to make sure the leg hackle is tied in from the tip, with the coarse end of the shaft to the rear, cupped up. Finishing the fly will complete the effect.

I "Hot Rod" everything I get my hands on....Flies aren't any different.
It always cracks me up when someone comes up with the totally obvious yet sorely missed finishing touches.
I don't create patterns to mount these legs to, quite the opposite in fact, I will stick them on the classics PTs, BHHEs, Stones....and some of my own!

Just making the wheel run smoother, and polishing what our elders gave us.

MOKE

[Larry S.]

I just read your instructions on your legging technique and you asked if anyone knew of this style of tying prior to the 70's. Bob Jacklin of West Yellowstone has used that style since the 60's or earlier on his March Brown (of which I got #3 from him last month). I picked it up from him several years ago and incorporated into some of my tying as has Rainy Riding in some of her patterns.

Now, those are just a couple of tyers I know of who use this style. Raw is right when he says there are those who claim credit for others' styles but there are also those who are quick to give credit where it is due.

How many out there tie the Elk Hair Caddis the way Al Troth originally tied it ? Not many I would bet. He himself took the Pheasant Tail Nymph(Original) and being the innovative guy he is came up with his own style. But it didn't end there. Others have added there own modifications and it goes on and on.

I'll send you a picture of Jacklin's March Brown.

[MOKE]

Thanks for the follow up. Truly appreciated.
If that is right, more power to Bob Jacklin.
I retract the "by MOKE" part.
I learned this technique in studies of nymphing on the West Fork San Gabriel river (wfsg), and Home Creek, from when I was just a kid. I would tie at streamside from the campground bench, and test the pattern. I was up there for whole weekends.
In other words it was self taught to me.
I learned to tie the Andre Puyans nymph from the man himself back in that day.
This was a real weird gathering of odd tiers who gathered at a shop in Palos Verdes, Ca. called Pet-O-Rama of all places.
A.P. knew one of the guys from our group, and he came to tie one night.
I think I was about 12 in a group of older professional men and doctors. I was the guest of my family doctor.
I didn't much care for the spiral hackle technique used on the AP nymph. I had great results with the nymph, but had tremendous results when I started tying it with this alternate legging technique.
The wsfg "river" is a tiny barely moving crystal clear flow in So. Cal.
You watch every single fish taken. Truly sight fishing. I could see the difference in real time, as the fish would micro-inspect every offering.

As I've said, its odd how similar styles develop. I truly tried to remember if I learned this or developed it. All I remember, as a kid, is trying to figure out how to tie the feather in. I've used this style of legging forever. I also learned a lot about tying YNP area and Idaho flies early on, so......
If I picked it up and have forgotten....ooops.
Apologies offered to those elders before me.

Oh yeah...I didn't really create the Adams or W. Bugger either ;)
MOKE

[Greg M]

MOKE,

Quoting MOKE

MOKE Reply;
A) Your PT Bomber is a standard tie for a BHPT nymph renamed to PT Bomber.
This helps make my point about renaming flies and taking credit for them...sorry.

B) I lose....? I'm totally "lost" here?
I have never claimed to be a greatly innovative tier. I don't often quest to reinvent the wheel as so many others.
My personal flies are generally the epitome of crude representation. I carry alot of a few patterns.
My winging material for most of my personal dry flies is polypropylene yarn sheared to fit the size of fly. Crude simple representation of a wing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GregM reply,

MOKE, just kidding with the you lose comment. Only meant that since you should me the step of tying the wingcase down as legs under the body I have had lots of success. More on that one fly type than anything else, even those tied by you. So my apologies if I ruffled feathers...did not mean to.


As for the PT, I understand the nature of that fly and that it is simply a basic attractor that matches many different aquatic life. I do not have any delusions about "inventing" anything. In tying I am the ultimate copy cat. I took a basic pattern found on a web site, added a bead head (nothing original there) and then added your suggestion of tying down legs. Presto the PT Bomber. But if there is another name that I should be calling it..like a BHPT then that's cool by me. Just trying to add a little difference to what I tie when discussing with others.

Oh, and I should probably point out that the PT Bomber is one of only two fly's that I am able to tie with any degree of success. So forgive a rookie his exuberance, still learning daily.

Later,

Greg M

[Larry S.]

I don't know that Mr. Jacklin was the first to use that style of tying in legs. Actually, when I found his flies and the accompanying liturature he states "early 70's" on the March Brown. You could very well be the first. Remember, back then I would bet there was a lot of "parallel" worlds in tying (my Star Trek is showing again !). He was in New Jersey in those years before he came out west to guide and to live. It was there he developed his fly.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed the pic.

Oh, by the way, the chem-trails, con-trails or whatever have decended upon us up here. We are getting drenched! ;^)

Feels GOOD !

[Fred]

I always thought the pheasant tail was a mayfly nymph, not an attractor pattern.

Anyway, I just tried your spring chicken legs, Moke. Tied them on a Mercer Micro Mayfly. Pretty neat trick. Thanks.

Not sure that I really like the way they sit on the top of the fly. I can usually work the PT feather tips so that they show up on the sides of the fly. And, the partrige feathers I have are a little lighter colored than I like. Still, not a bad technique. The true test will happen on the water.

[MOKE]

Sorry Greg :) :) :)
I really didn't mean anything derogatory in my comments.
I was just trying to make the point of how many patterns get recycled and renamed....
Yours is the PT Bomber, and it works like a mofo! I've seen it work.

RAIN? You guys are getting rain?....WooHoo!!

Larry S.
That rain is great news!
And yes, I enjoyed the photo, thank you. That is definetely the leg style I'm talking about.

Fred....Chicken legs :) ...lol
Like I said, I like Starling for its color, dark gray / black iridescent.
I end up grabbing the old Starling all the time.
And it also allows you to tie soft hackles in size 20-22. Partridge isn't so good on the tiny sizes, imo. I hope it works for you! Let me know.
IMO....the PT is a mayfly "attractor type" pattern, when compared to some of the Mercers, WD40s..... smaller thread bodied nymphs.
No negativites intended.

Peace to all.
Hugs and Kisses =-)( ....smoooch

MOKE

[Ouzel]

Since they came out a number of years ago I have not been able to find a nymph that looked like a bead head. EVER!

I've talked with some fly shop owners and others and the consenses is the reason bead heads produce at all is the added weight gets the nymph down to the bottom to the fish.

It is also very much easier to weight a nymph in this manner for production tying than the other method of lead wraps.

Of course this is a quick 'hot' new fly to catch fisherman.

I use beads myself; but in the manner Moke illustrates in the thorax area to imitate the gas bubble, using clear or pearl beads.

So how do you get the nymph done to the fish?
There has been an on-going debate of lead wraps on the fly vs split shot on the leader for many years.

Splitt shot on the leader propoents voice the unweighted nymphs move more naturally in the current.

With all the tying materials now available to us there are even more ways to imitate a natual insect then before. I have been having good success and easier tying using the various colored wires for bodies on nymphs.

That does not mean I am of the first groups thinking as I also will use splitt shot on the leader at times. What is does mean is I will use various methods at different times according to the present conditions.

A fine flyfisherman told me on a recent trip to the Jackson area the best producing fly was the Copper John and I have tied a few of them. I have also tied some look-a-likes without the bead head. I will be testing both on a upcoming trip to various rivers in the Henry's Fork area this coming week and hopfully continuing through the following week. I ask you all to pray for the second week for me.

RAW is certainly correct when he says there are a lot of people who want to take credit for others older flys and methods. I guess those individuals believe there are enough new fishermen and tyers that don't know when their be bull&$*@ed. Hooks covered with thread have worked for thousands of years as has been attested by Egyptian paintings. NEW? Yes it was new once, just not to this millenia. Can I hear a 'amen' for Kim Yong?

One of the nice things about this site is there are individuals who have seen this nonsense go on before and we all can learn. That is the main reason I keep coming back.

Thank you again to Mike and Jason for starting the ball.

[hookjaw]

I use a midge size silver glass bead on my "yong" specials. Works just fine. I don't know where he get off charging $2 a piece for these things.

BTW, I tried tying the body with clear tubing and a thread underbody with similar results.

[Fred]

"I've talked with some fly shop owners and others and the consenses is the reason bead heads produce at all is the added weight gets the nymph down to the bottom to the fish."

That seems a little too simple to me. For instance, why would two identical patterns with different colored beadheads produce different results? I've tried it. It can be the difference between copper and gold--same size, same weight, but one works better than the other. Even with a beadhead, it still has to look like the natural. Also, why does a beadhead PT work better sometimes than a plain PT, or vice versa? IMO, the fish key in on the beads sometimes and it's not simply a matter of extra weight.

[flyty]

Greg M,

Thanks for the recipe, I remembered most of it, but knowing the bead size sure helps. I tied some up and made do with a 3/32 tungsten bead so I could also use them on smaller hooks, so I guess I tied up some PT Bomblets. Anyway, they came out great. I tied some smaller sizes(#20 200R, which because of its 3x long hook is about equivalent to a size #18 3761), and I've never been happy with the way my herl comes out on small flies. On the PT Bomber, I used the herl that runs right through the eye of the feather. The green tips are so fragile and fine, if you breathe on them, they break; but I used 4 strands and gently twisted them into a thin rope and the color was a brilliant, shimmering green. Sometimes you tie some flies and everything goes perfectly: tail, ribbing, herl, taper, etc, and that's what happened to me on those flies.

I saw tying instructions by Dave Hughes on tying legs for the PT nymph: after wrapping the body and tying off, for the wing case he ties in some pt segments with the tips forward and a length extending from under the tie in point equal to the leg length. You get finer legs that way. Do you think it's better to have thicker legs? The thinner legs do require an extra tie in.

I also tied up some Yong Wannabe's(the black thread tungsten bead head midge/nymph from the meeting), and got so thrilled with the thread control technique of twisting and untwisting, I graduated to some Yong Specials, and they came out great too.

I spent all weekend tying nymphs, and I had a lot of fun. Thanks for the great meeting and all the great patterns. Now, what is a die hard dry fly enthusiast supposed to do with all those nymph patterns?! Next: walksinwater's bent hackle flies-->anyone have any tips on how to pick out a partridge skin or even better--a smaller, cheaper portion.

[flyty]

Hmmm...just did some checking on some dry fly hooks, and a 3/32 bead slides off a size 18. Do the same size hooks of different types have the same size eye?

[Justin Q.]

I am the tier of the yong wanna be that you talk of...I called it the YS Zebra (which stands for Yong-Special Zebra). I called the fly this because it a Zebra with the exception of rather that tying in wire to wrap around the body, I incoporated the thread method used on the yong-special (basically flattening out the thread to lay foundation and once at the bend spin extra twist into the thread so that it creates a segmented look as you wrap the thread back up the body of the fly).

In regards to the bead...I use a tungsten bead (I believe it is a 3/32...I will check tonight to make sure about this size). The hook I use is a tiemco 2488. I like the 2488 as it has a straight eye so you have a wider gap for more successful hook-ups. I have never had the bead come off. The final and important step to the fly is to coat it with head-cement. Apply the cement and let it absorb into the fly for a few moments. First, ths makes the fly a little translucent (hard to see in dark colors but it does happen). Secondly, the head cement makes sure that the thread does not unravel.

By doing away with the wire from the Zebra pattern, the fly is much quicker to tie and in my opinion much more durable (if you head-cement it of course) and the segmentation by the thread technique is more effective.

In terms of using a bead, I use it on this pattern because the majority of the time I use this fly it is as a dropper of a dry, so I need the weight to sink it. Otherwise I would tie a yong-special and use it on a standard nymph rig with weight attached to the leader.

Hope this helps. And in case anyone is wondering ..I am not claiming to have made a new fly..or have ownership rights of naming it....I just haven't seen a fly tied this particular way when I first tied it (I recently noticed similar flies now being sold at WRF that has dubbing behind the bead). I basically gave this fly the name that it has as a personal convenience to distiguish it from an actual Zebra. So, in an attempt to credit those tyers of the flies that I merged to create it, I named it YS Zebra (YS=yong special, which represents the thread method used to tie the fly and Zebra=the fly pattern style).

[flyty]

Hi Justin,

I was wondering when you were going to chime in. What size hook do you use. I couldn't find any 2488's at Fish Tech or SW, so I used 2487's. On a #22, a 5/64(2mm) bead, which I think is the smallest they make, looks a little big. Also, I remember you tied one with the tag extending a bit. Should the tag be on the top or bottom of the hook?

Sorry, I already sent my new pattern book to the publisher in which I list you as the originater of the Yong Wannabe, so it's too late to change it.

[Justin Q.]

I typically tie the YS Zebra in a size 18 (TMC 2488)w/ a silver 2.3 mm tungsten bead. The TMC 2487 is the same hook pattern as the 2488 except the 2487 has a down eye. The 2487 will work just fine for size 18 and bigger. I usually don't tie the YS Zebra smaller than a 18...if you want to go smaller definately use TMC 2488 so you have a larger hook gap..and in terms of a bead try the 2.0 mm bead. But I would only tie a smaller BH if I am using it as a dropper off a dry. If you want a deep-rig nymph...try a yong-special in the small sizes (20-24) using the 2488 trailing off a bigger lead nymph (e.g., PT, HE, scud). I like using a silver bead as it seems to be more productive in my experience. Perhaps the fish think it looks like an air bubble, I don't know.

To answer some of your original questions, buy the large spool of coats and clark cotton covered polyester...it will fit on a large bobkin. Try different colors (black, red, tan, green). Be careful when taking thread as you tie as the c&c tends fray. I prevent this I try, I get extra thread by pulling a parallel bobkin directly away from the fly so the thread funnels through the bobkin. Hope that makes sense.

On the Green I found that dropping the YS zebra about 18" off an 16 para-adams worked well this spring..and as the fall progress and the fall baetis..the same rig adjusted for smaller fall sizes should work as well. In terms of deep nymphing, this spring I found that a Bighorn scud (#14/16) trailing a yong-special (#20/22) worked well. I tied the Bighorn scud with either orange, dark grey, or dark grey/green ostrich herl.

Hope this helps.

[Fred]

I tie a fly exactly like Justin's, but I use a 200R hook. I use olive floss, copper wire, and a copper beadhead. Tie on the wire, tie on the thread, twist it, wrap it forward, bring the wire up and tie it off. Good winter fly on the Lower P.

[Justin Q.]

Missed answering this question in my last post. The fly with the tag is the yong blood which is supposed to represent a blood midge. The recipe for this pattern indicates leaving the tag on the top (opposite of the hook). Remember in wrapping back up the body to stagger your wraps, as opposed to having them abut each other as on the yong-special/ys zebra.

[Justin Q.]

Flyty...thanks for crediting me as the originator of this fly....notwithstanding my plagarism to create it, I expect royalties from selling of your pattern book. Am I going to reap big royalties??? I hope so, because I just told my boss that I have a new source of income and he can take this job and merge it with his arse.

[I hope you weren't joking about your pattern book].

RAW....any chances of including "my" plagarized fly in your next pattern book. We can call it a different name...how about the "T5000" (isn't that the new of the superduper Terminator in T2?)? Also, I have a ton other patterns that I can claim as my own...just email me your address and I can provide you actual photocopies of the flies w/recipes from other books that have the "wrong" name listed for the fly.

[flyty]

I just told my boss that I have a new source of income and he can take this job and merge it with his arse.
uh oh...anyone know how to write a pattern book?

Thanks for the info. I tied some Yong Bloods sans tag, and with two coats of head cement, they look great. I've got a 2mm bead and a #24 grey RS2 living in my carpet now. More questions: Can a fish really tell the difference between a grey and a tan WD40 #24? Has anyone ever fished a Yong Flasher?

I guess I'm going to have to head to the Lower Provo and learn how to nymph. Is the water on the Lower still murky?

[Fred]

The water is not murky, but its warm and full of weeds. Nymph fishing is tough for that reason. But not impossible. I fished it for about an hour or so yesterday.

[RAW]

Book Idea?

Justin Q and friends:

We could come up with a pattern and tiers book titled, "Great Flies from Fly Tying Wannabes." We could get pictures of all of us and then list and show instructions for all the flies we have changed and modified. LOL.

I must warn all of you not to quit your day jobs if you come up with a pattern book. The royalties are not that great and you set yourself up to be slammed by the critics.

We can dream while fishing though. Just imagine...The perfect fly fishing novel made into a motion picture. Brad Pitt can play the passionate young fly fisher who will never leave Montana because of the fishing addiction. He gets beat to death because of his other addiction (gambling) and his brother continues to fish because he realizes that all things in life eventually merge into one and a river runs through it.

Boy, this all sounds so familiar. We better not write it. Just imagine the influx of people into the sport because they think it's the Hollywood thing to do. Talk about guilt for crowding the waters!

[Greg M]

Flyty and Ouzel,

Ouzel,

I use the bead head on my PT Bomber (I like the name so I am going to keep using it!...yes, I will take some cheese with that little whine) for the exact reason you list. To get down fast to where the fish are.

I noticed that on the small streams around Utah that I could see the big fish down deep in holes. Combine that with the fact that you often are dealing with a very short window of opportunity before the current carries your line and fly out of the hole and you realize you have to get down fast.

So when I started tying the first fly I learned was the PT nymph and I added the tungsten head just to make it SINK FAST.

Flyty,

I saw the read the instructions by Dave Hughes and tried that way but always ended up with a bundle of stuff in the middle of the fly. So I decided that if I found a pheasant tail with long enough fibers I could use those for both the wing case and the legs.

I use 10-12 fibers for the wing case and legs because the legs get torn off when being banged off the rocks in strong current, and because they get chewed up by trout!!!:):)

I also tie the fly with a 18 hook and a 3/32 bead head, in fact the fly's I tied the other night where 18's...I can't tie any thing smaller as I would not be able to see it.


And as for the book idea, I will happily submit the PT Bomber.

Later,

[Larry S.]

Going back a ways on this thread......


I talked to Bob Jacklin this morning up in West Yellowstone and among other things we talked about I asked him about the fold over leg style we talked about earlier. He stated he picked it up from a tyer named Pat (forgot the last name) in New Jersey in the late sixties.

Just thought it interesting.

[MOKE]

Larry S
Many thanks for the updated update. :)
It has been a really long time that I have been tying with this legging technique.
I would tend to think I picked it up from the eastern spring creekers.
An odd thing for a Cali born FF'er
I was fairly obsessed with spring creekin' as a kid, and the only literature that was readily available was on the Pennsylvania springs.
Marinaro, Fox, Humphrey, Darby.....mid school eastern practitioners. I ate that stuff up.

Thanks again.
MOKE

[jim m.]

Moke,

Did you get fish any of the spring creeks in PA? I grew up not far from Carlise and spent time fishing the Letort. Big Springs, and a bunch of other limestoners in that area as well as around Catawissa.

Was on the Letort a few months ago for the sulfer hatch.....I miss those waters quite a bit.

[MOKE]

Jim M
No, I've never had the opportunity to do that.
I was most fortunate to have spent alot of time on the wests great spring creeks, and freestones long before the maddening crowds.
The time I was referring to in my readings on the Penn Creeks was when I was 10 or 12, or so.
My dad is not a fly fisher, and fishing to him was basically once in the summer, and then a week in Montana in the early fall, then it was football season.

Fortunately for me I had FF'ing grandfathers on both sides of the family.
These guys kept my interests more than primed.
One lived in Beaver, Ut. (dads side original pioneers to Beaver)
We would go to the west side of Idaho on occasion as well. Little Salmon, Boulder Creek, Rapid River, and Gramps home streams....all forks of the Boise river. (He was born and raised in Wieser)

The other had a cabin at the end of the Henrys / Box cyn.
(moms side were first white settlers in Shelly / Firth, Id. area.)
I would spend a month apprx. each summer, in each place, Beaver & Henrys Fork, so my summers were full of fly fishing.
My winters were spent on LA area rivers, which can make many spring creeks seem overly easy in comparison. So I became a spring creek geek :)

Theres my FF'ing development period in brief.

Peace
MOKE