Comments...

[Mike]

***** On Crowding *****

I'll lay it on the table for you guys... I do believe that reports are at least partially responsible for crowding. I also believe that there are spots that while not secret, don't need any public advertising. Then there are those places that I'm firmly convinced are pretty much busy all of the time regardless of reports.

I find it very difficult to stomach the idea that via this site I personally am responsible in any way, shape or form for adding pressure to our local waters -- particularly the lesser known ones. That's not a position that I have any desire to be in. After all, I am the same guy that rolls up to a spot, sees more cars than I would normally expect and says: "Where the hell did all these people come from?!" How hypocritical would I be if I:

a) thought this site might be a factor in crowding

b) moaned privately or publicly about the number of people I saw on the river

It's a shame that there's no scientific study that has tried to link fishing reports and crowding. Given that fact, at this point any conclusions about the matter are all complete speculation on everyone's part. My gut tells me there's at least some validity to the whole theory. Again, since there's no official data on the matter, what else is there to go on but what your gut tells you?

To those who post comments like: "I don't magically fly down to the river when I read a report." That's great and I absolutely believe you! Unfortunately there are about 600 other people here reading the reports who didn't speak up on the subject. That's not to say that all those people run out and go fishing whenever they hear it's hot -- but what if even 5% of them do? There are a couple of places that I fish that are "crowded" if there are more than 2 or 3 people there. Are those places "secret" or "mine" alone? Nope, but I'm sure as heck not going to wander around telling people what a great day I had fishing at [insert quiet place here].

So some of you will say, "hey, let's just have reports on the 'busy' spots..." Of course that sounds very reasonable. However there then comes the inevitable and unending argument about which spots should be reported on and which shouldn't. We've seen it here since the site was started. I don't think that we'll all suddenly come to any consensus on the subject unfortunately.

***** On Charging *****

I know that a few of you have mentioned either recently or previously that you'd be willing to pay money to access the site. There are a lot of problems inherent in us letting people do that. Once you start accepting money for a service, you're running a business. That's the bottom line. Running a business involves incorporating, filing taxes, getting a corporate bank account, etc.... It's a heck of a lot of work.

If we went that way with this site, you'd all end up paying for a lot more than bandwidth. There's a great deal of time and money involved in running even a small business. Never mind that people "paying" for the site will start expecting services that "non-paying" people didn't have and I'd have to do some custom programming to make it all work, etc.... I have considered that problem at length, and it just doesn't seem feasible to charge people. I'd love to think that people appreciate the site enough to pay for access, but that's not the reality. Most people like it because it's informative and free -- and that's fine. To those who would pay, thanks very much, I'm glad that you enjoy it that much.

Maybe someday we'll be forced to charge for the site, or solicit donations. I suspect that the latter is a better idea. Either way, that day isn't here yet. Until it is, there's no need to worry about it. As needed we have implemented measures to keep everything running smoothly. To date that has worked well, so we'll continue to do it that way.

***** On Complaints *****

I'm sorry that many of you clearly don't like the current report experiment. I will reiterate... There is a lot more to this site than fishing reports! If that's all that you're taking away from here, or all that you enjoy, you're not availing yourself of the many other resources here. This site has spawned cleanup efforts, fly tying clubs, BBQ's, road trips and countless new friendships and associations.

I have said this before on a couple of occasions. If you don't like the way that this site is run and / or think that you can do a better job, please do! That's exactly how this site got started as a matter of fact. Jason and I didn't like what was available as far as Utah fly fishing websites were concerned and so we started this one. Please feel absolutely free to spend your personal time and money developing another Utah fly fishing website that you have absolute control over.

Please don't think that we don't consider your suggestions. We do. However this particular matter isn't up for discussion at the moment.

***** In Summary *****

For the most part, I very much enjoy running and hosting this site! I think that it's a great resource for local fly fisherman. I also think that it will remain as such whether you can post a report or not.

Having to ask for a report as opposed to letting people just report on whatever they want just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. I'm not asking anyone to not post their stories or relay their experiences. I'm simply asking people not to post one single detail -- that being the exact location that they were fishing. I'm also not stopping anyone from getting a report. If you want one, ask for one. Somebody will send you the info.

I understand that's it's not as fun or as cool as the old reports forum. However, I do believe that it's more responsible. So for now -- for better or worse -- that's the way it is. If you don't like it, that's fine. You're totally entitled to your opinion on the matter! You're allowed to disagree. I just don't want hear about it here anymore.

I feel a personal responsibilty, however misquided you think it may be, to run this site in a manner that has a minimal impact on the waters that we all fish.

Tight lines to all!


Mike

[Mr. Loopy]

Mike-

I have the upmost respect for you and your decisions. It is your site and you can do what you want with it. I have personally gotten way more out of this site than I ever imagined. I have learned numerous things about techniques, what types of flies to use, etc. via your site. Thank you very much.

[Cor]

I could have sworn I just heard a thick bible getting thumped. Did anyone else hear that?

;-)

[Old Man]

Mike: I applaud your efforts with the latest post. I think and feel you have the right to do what you want with YOUR site. It is yours and I think too many would like to express what you should do so that it will fit what they(those who may have their own agenda) want to see done. What difference does it make whether people read the reports and head to the waters reported on. We live a world of people and we have to get along with them. I don't like crowds and I don,t like wind when I fly fish but the wind is their and there is little I can do about it , other than to bite my lip and leave or fish. I have personally enjoyed this site and would like to see it continue. All of us need to grow up, some more than others, and get on with life adn not consider that we have a corner on the fishing world and it's knowledge. All in all keep up the good work and let's all of us give Mike and Jason the opportunity to continue their labor of love and keep this site up and going. If any one thinks they can do a better job I would like to see it. I have been around for a long time and have fished many days and many weeks and many years and it is the neatest recreation I can think of and I am willing to do my part to make it better for others. Thanks for the site and the time you guys give.

[MOKE]

This place is great! Stand by what your heart tells you to do.

This might be worth mentioning or maybe not.
My other favorite internet site just today decided to split its discussion forum into 2 camps....Tech Geeks, and Community.
This forum deals with live music recording. The Tech Camp is tired of hearing the reports of peoples efforts in live concert recording, and the people who seek the copies. The Community folk don't always want to talk tech.
This other site is in constant bickering over petty issues, so we'll see what happens.

Does anyone see a correlation here?

Its also really uptight. If you even slightly waver from topic, some Tech Geek jumps down your throat....so its scary sterile in there.(the other site)

I like the feeling of community in here much more. Its nice and comfortable.

Jason and Mike.....Thanks for making this spot available for us.
Much Respect on the difficult decision, and time spent on our communities behalf.

MOKE

[robinsoj]

I read the fishing reports since I found this site over the past few months or so. I never saw a report that mentioned a fishing hole that I didn't already know about or was in another state. I've only been living here for a few years. Given the information I saw while a user here, taking away the report forum is a major over reaction. It's hard to take seriously a complaint about giving away a "secret" spot when there is a paved road and parking lot to this spot. Most reports were for the major rivers and lakes which I found entertaining and informative. The reports forum also provided some general fly fishing help that otherwise would not have been available.

People have to fish somewhere. The same amount of people are fishing somewhere regardless of whether or not they read Internet fishing reports. This site is just one of many. If someone decides to go somewhere different than originally decided it just means more room at the original place. Any obvious "problem" reports could be deleted. Like any Internet forum, a reports forum could be moderated by multiple people.

[jim m.]

Cor,
I did hear that thump!!!! I’m not sure if it was the bible though....I bet it was Middleton’s The Earth is Enough...and rightfully so.

Taking responsible for ones actions isn’t always cool, fun or easy.
Mike and Jason deserve a lot of credit for what they are doing. There’s a bigger picture here and it’s obvious that they both see it.

My thanks to both of them.

[Cary]

This site is just one of many.

Yes, but Mike and Jason's character and courage to do what they feel is right thing seperates this site from the others.

[Jason B]

is what made this site different. Mike if you were concerned of what your site may do why did you create it?? You made a quality site and should not feel responsible for a few extra cars. Chances are they probably watched Doug Miller the night before. You have a great site but i don't think that i will be nearly as good as it was.

[Greg M]

Mike and Jason,

I applaud your efforts to help grow the sport of fly-fishing and more.

From the beginning I have looked for more then reports from this site. The discussions of fly-fishing in general has resulted in lots of laughs and evenings spent thinking on more then catching a rising trout.

Please keep up the good work, keep the focus on ALL aspects of fly-fishing.

Thanks,

Greg M

[brownbear]

I disagree with Jason B when he says a good report page is what made this site different. What makes this site different is that it was created and continues to exist solely to share a love for fly fishing and allows local anglers to share that love and learn from those around them.

I have also received much more out of this site than I thought possible and probably much more than I have given back to this point. I have developed new skills for the tying bench and for the river and I have picked up some great tips to make my fishing more enjoyable for me and for those with whom I share Utah’s waters. But best of all, this site brings the thoughts and enjoyment of fishing to me when life doesn't allow me to get to the fish.

I also applaud Mike and Jason for their efforts and their courage to stick by what their "gut" tells them is right. Thanks for your efforts.

[LarryM]

Mike, thanks for providing this web site. Personally, I miss the reports for a reason not sighted by anyone else. I'd read the reports to see where people said "They didn't catch fish", and that's where I'd go to fish. Seemed to me that if someone was willing to publicly admit he or she didn't catch fish someplace it was only because they were incompetent or purposely not telling the truth. If they were incompetent, it wasn't the fishes fault that the fisherman's skills weren't very good or they didn't know what to use. Now if they weren't telling the truth, the only reason for not telling the truth was because the fishing was fantastic and they wanted to scare off the competition. Either way, a bad public report tended to keep the crowds away and I'd make my own decision on how good the fishing really was. In case anyone was wondering, fishing was just awful Sunday morning at Daniels between 2 AM and 7 AM. However, I killed them from 7 AM until 11 AM. Don't waste your time driving up there to try it until the sun comes up.

[Teewinot]

Originally posted by Mike
***** On Crowding *****

You're totally entitled to your opinion on the matter! You're allowed to disagree. I just don't want hear about it here anymore.

Tight lines to all!


Mike

Just thought I'd repost this since it seems that some people missed this section.

Keep on Fishin -- No more Bitchin :) (It just rhymed so I had to say it)

[Jason B]

i am going to give this new system a try but must say i think its already taken away a great deal from this site

[crimedog]

Mike and Jason. This site is the best that I have found. I used to go to the other utah fly fishing site. and all it was there were reports. The Reports page was minimal compared the over all site. I love the Fly Fishing Forum. I have learned more in the time I have been on this site then I have fly fishing. I enjoy the comments. and the humor. It definalty helps at 3 in the morning when I am sitting at work with nothing to do. I go and read all of the articles. and all the other information.

I have noticed an increase on my favorite stream over the last few monhts. Not a lot of people but more then I normally see. And it does happen after it's been talked about on here. Alot of you know what that stream is. even I have talked about it in here.

Keep up the great work. I love this site and it is still my home page!

[Jason B]

increase in people be do to the raging heat that we have had. There is a lot of people from Spanish Fork to Salt Lake that may just be try to escape the heat.

[Fred]

"Seemed to me that if someone was willing to publicly admit he or she didn't catch fish someplace it was only because they were incompetent or purposely not telling the truth."

That's bull. I posted about being skunked at the berry and I was telling the truth. I'm not the best stillwater angler in the world, but I've fished enough to know that I'm not incompetent. Everyone has bad days sometimes. In addition, I don't think anyone would deliberately lie about having a bad day so they could somehow discourage people from finding out the hot fishing. Why bring it up at all? Just mentioning the name gives people an awareness about the river/lake/whatever.

[Teewinot]

Oh come on Fred -- let's face it this is real world fly fishing. It's all so cutthroat out there. ha ha ha

Ok that was real cheesy -- anyone for some more wine (whine) :}

[bcsort]

Dudes,

I know there has been a few times while reading a report from one of my favorite spots, that I "cringed" and wished the report had not been made. If someone made a report on one of my "secret spots," I would be very upset. Think about seeing a report on your most secret personal fishing spot with directions, size and # of fish caught, best technique and patterns.................... OK, upset yet?

I think the administration has made it perfectly clear that this is how it will be for a while, and hopefully forever. So lets give all of the UOTF members and especially the administration some respect and not post childish reports.

I believe that Mike or Jason (our administrators) informed us that only 30% of 700 members actually participate in the forums. Makes me wonder how many Utah vacations have been planned around these reports and our (utahns) waters.

[RAW]

Once upon a report post, I saw a post on a spot that I considered my own personal water. It is one that I never talk about. I was very surprised to see it mentioned because most people would never consider fishing it unless they just happened to be in the area and decided to give it a try or someone familiar with it told them about it. In other words, not a spot you would plan to fish unless you are privy to certain information. I did not respond at all to the post and hoped that it would go away unnoticed, which for the most part it did. I was glad. Am I a jerk? An elitist? A SOB? In some eyes I guess I am.

I appreciate what Mike and Jason have done for all of us. I too respect their decision and their feeling. So this will be my last post on this topic. As is mentioned...so much more to this site. Remember, this is not a commercial site. Jason and Mike do not make a livelihood from this site. Maybe in the future they will move in that direction, maybe not. Flyshops make money by telling you where to go, what to use, how to use it and in some instances taking you there. This site does not.

Another thought. In my own instance, Mike and Jason have allowed me to advertise my book through the book review section. That is very nice of them. They have asked nothing in return. They are terrific individuals. I have met both personally and respect them greatly. Sounds like I'm BROWN NOSING so I better drop it. :)

[walksinwater]

The ability to interreact with the person posting in a general basis.

The follow up comments on a report gave that forum a high entertainment and at times educational aspect.

It is what added the flavor and uniqueness to that forum.

Other sites that I have explored have a very dry, report. Name of river, number of fish, type of fly etc. So really who Is that person who posted?

But the comments on the reports made for a greater interaction, and a show of personalities.

Thus a begining of knowlege of another person.

One could be fishing next to another ff and never know who they were. In my experience with the report forum. I was priviledged to meet Bob Naftel after we found out we were indeed fishing next to each other, after reading our posts. (By the way Bob, how are you and the misses doing?)

It was a good way for the public to view and jump into a conversation and become a part of the site, if they chose to.

A new part of what I see on the request forum, is an even closer interraction and knowledge of a person.
A more open sharing of thoughts and ideas on a one to one basis.

As I have mentioned. I have noticed this site continually evolving progressively.

Remember how it was last year, six months ago?

[bob naftel]

I must agree with walks. I have benefited greatly from this site and the best has been to met Walks, Ouzel, Jason B, Mr T and to fish with them. My hope is to meet more and fish with more of you and this should not change.

Another great thing has been the interaction on the forums and great stories swapped back and forth. Keep those up as they have seemed to diminish.

In my experience I have gotten info on other rivers and streams from fly fishermen on the river. They have almost insisted that I try various rivers or streams that they loved. I have never posted on these.

Keep up the good work Mike and Jason.

Bob

[shazerblaze]

I'll admit that I miss the reports section...but that's okay. More than anything, I liked reading about the success and learning what people use (differently than I do). I enjoyed reading funny stories about a particular fishing trip. But, we need to change a couple of things to preserve our streams and lakes. That seems to be the primary reason (if I understand, correctly), and certainly is worth more than the stories, reports, etc. Mike and Jason have done a great job and are genuinely concerned about us and the streams we fish. Great job, Mike and Jason. I appreciate what you guys do. It has kept me sane during my time here in Missouri.

[ticketP1]

To the admin guys of this site changes have needed to be made, and so be it. If its what they want done then I respect their opinions. Sometimes you need a report, sometimes you don't. I only want to reiterate that if someone asks for some info or some such particular that should be disseminated to just the requesting indivisual, then by all means e-mail him back w/ the info. Don't lay out on him. Personally, I don't need to hear a hundred HFOs (Hot Fish Opinions) on Moosenard Creek. But rather, if I need to know info on Moosenard, then just one person can fill me in on the basics to get me off and running. Sure it was entertaining and all reading a dozen different peoples experiences but the point of a report request is to obtain a minimal amount of info to get you started (i.e., flies, sizes, approx locations, etc)... I have only queried this kind of stuff a couple of times. Most of the time I can go at it alone. And as I fish more my confidence goes up. But some folks are clueless when it comes to getting started, as we all have been during some point in time (and perhaps still occassionally are). So again, just e-mail a responce and let 'em know what they need to know to get their feet off the ground. I am harping on this because somenoe complained of the lay-out earlier and if there are people out there that know then speak up! One final note or rather pet peeve I should say is the lack of a simple thank you upon being issued this info. When it happens I feel like, "WELL YOURE FRIKIN' WELCOME A-HOLE!". This has only happened a time or two as most folks are cool about this. Those that aren't need to learn... A little bit of decency goes a long way. "Hey thanks for the info." ...Now how hard was that?