How this forum works... [Archive] - Fly Fishing Utah

LandGuppy

07-11-2002, 02:27 PM

Although I like both you guys, I have to disagree with you on this one. If someone posts a report about 32" fish on an unnamed river, everybody and their dog is going to e-mail that person to find out where, if just for sheer curiosity. So in the end, everybody's gonna know about it anyway.

If it were me making a great post, I would rather just put the place on my post rather than answer 600 e-mails from every member of UOTF.

By the way, isn't the whole "posting a great report without mentioning the spot" the same thing you guys were ripping on Curtis for less than a month ago?

Mike

07-11-2002, 02:47 PM

pathaws -- I totally appreciate your viewpoint! I very much enjoy providing a fly fishing website that's of use to other Utahns -- as does Jason. It's difficult though... There are literally thousands of people viewing the site now on a regular basis. With that knowledge comes a bit of resposibility unfortunately. If you look at the posting / crowding poll, it's pretty clear to me that 70% of the people here are basically saying "yes, I believe that reports at least contribute to crowding problems." Well then, let's not have any reports and see what happens.

Also, as previously mentioned and of considerable importance, we're running out of bandwidth. This will likely free some of it up so that the site remains free. I am not really interested in charging or soliciting money to keep this site up. It may well come to that someday, but as long as we can keep the site free and useful, we will.

LandGuppy -- If everyone and their dog emails someone based on their story, at least that person is then given the personal choice on whether they fell they would like to relay information on that spot to the people writing. In the past I've posted a couple of somewhat tantalizing reports on unnamed water and have yet to get a single email about any of them. So I don't think that people will suddently be overwhelmed with requests. For those who like to tell fishing stories, as I said, I'm not asking anyone not to tell their tales.

As far as "ripping on" Curtis goes... I don't believe you'll find any posts by me of that nature! I very specifically have asked people to consider posting anonymous and vague reports on the "Quiet Places."

Cary

07-11-2002, 03:07 PM

...and needless to say, I think this is a great idea! As well, I'll certainly participate if I have some recent info on a requested place, now that its more of a one-on-one dialog.

I think that your reporting poll showed som interesting results, a greater percentage of perople expressed consern about reports and crowding than I wouls have thought by reading the posts of most of the "regulars".

Stick to your guns on this one, man!

-Cary

Junge

07-11-2002, 03:09 PM

I believe Mike did specify that this was a "Radical Experiment". If it works, great...if it doesn't I am sure they will acknowledge it and continue to try different things. Give them a break and try it out before you disembowel them.

jim m.

07-11-2002, 03:18 PM

I think this is a good idea.
I read in a forum the other day where someone commented on how they visit this site for basically just the reports. There is so much more to this site than fishing reports. If bandwidth is an issue (and I know it is) I would rather see cycles allocated for the other forum areas (conservation, fly tying, fly fishing.....) in my opinion, that's where the really good stuff is and where users have the most to gain.

Jason B

07-11-2002, 03:54 PM

Just don't like it, put it back the way it was. Now i have to beg for information from someone through e-mail

Norm

07-11-2002, 04:05 PM

Liked it the way it was, don't get me wrong change sometimes is good but I dont know about this one, I'll reserve judgment for a later time. I hope the changes were not due to some of the elitests that are out there. I like hearing stores of different, "specified" places, its encouraging. When I read these reports I don't shut the computor down and Jump into the SUV and go 100mph to that location and start trashing it and crowding people out, and I doubt anyone else on this site does that either. Hell its like some people think us novice redneck sheep are going to flock to where ever they are and snuggle up next to them on the river. If you've had a good day and don't want to disclose wer6e it was, DON'T. If you do want to tell us were you were, Go for it. If you took a poll I would bet 75% of the people who visit this site only get out fishing once a week or less and only during certian times of the year (spring and summer). And of those people 90% of that fishing time is spent in their backyard fishing holes, which for me is mantua, the logan, and the black smith fork. I thinks some peoples fears have gotten a little over blown.

Any way have fun all!

pathaws

07-11-2002, 04:07 PM

Mike makes some good points and I would never fault an experiment performed in the interest of making a better product and this is the best local web site there is. I still liked it better the old way, buts thats life, maybe now I'll get out and fish instead of virtual catching via proxy. Keep up the good web site, but I'll be happy if you dump the bandwidth somewhere else instead of what I (one person) thinks is the best part of your site. A 70% vote against posting is probably reflective of some skewed data. Anyway, it can't hurt to see how it goes.

ezlehappy

07-11-2002, 04:30 PM

explain bandwidth please. I like to the ease and enjoyment of seeing how other people did and where they did it at. I find the posts informative and with a lot of great view points. That's the appeal of it. there's an interaction. it's a forum, not a delivery service. By taking out the reports you take out the comrodery.

Mike

07-11-2002, 05:49 PM

ez -- We can only send and receive so much data from this server per month. That's the easiest way to explain it. Currently there's an amount we're paying for, once we're over that, we'd have to pay for more. We're trying to avoid that particular situation.

For the record, I don't think that most of you read a report, fire up your car and storm the water to go fish slaying or anything! I can state authoritatively that there are an incredible number of people who contribute absolutely nothing to the site by way of posting, all the while reading the reports. That's fine. Not everyone is going to contribute. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I am much more interested in supporting those who support the site so to speak. If you've been around the site at all, you know who's who. Are you more likely to share information about one of your favorite spots with someone you've learned something from here? My guess would be yes...

Anyway... It's all an experiment. We'll see what happens!

nhancock

07-11-2002, 05:54 PM

But I have since realized how much more this site has to offer. I am definately in favor of open posting of reports and I won't likely request reports via email. But there are plenty of other attractions this site offers. Especially in the fly tying section. I can't tell you how much my flies have improved.

Thanks guys.

Mike

07-11-2002, 05:59 PM

nhancock reinforces a very important point. There is a lot more to the site than just reports. Heck, it has somehow spawned 2 river cleanups, 3 ongoing fly tying clubs, some awesome "get togethers" and a whole lot of new friendships...

Larry S.

07-11-2002, 06:14 PM

..... with Mike if only for my own personal reasons. I very seldom read the reports anyway except was interested lately about the Green and the fire damage.

It seemed most of the reports were of either Strawberry, Provo River or Weber, none of which I frequent anyway.

Then it was getting to be the reports of places that should have been on the "Other Waters" section. A good portion of the waters I fish are from this section but I post few if any reports of how I have done(or haven't for that matter). Not so much as I want it kept to myself(wishful thinking)as cause there are many reports out there already. Those of you I have talked with in the past know you can contact me for info anyway. Maybe I'm of the school of thought of Quill Gordon?

As for the band width issue I don't know how you work it but couldn't you set it up to clear itself after about 2 weeks time or something? Most of the stuff would be obsolete anyways.

The other sections are great but without the "Reports" section could we creat one for Walk's poetry?

Jason B

07-11-2002, 06:14 PM

To me its like now posting a blind report, where you hear about how good the fishing is but you are left guessing where and what flys someone was using. Then it's up to the person to give that information out, if that person doesn't want to give out that information then isn't that wasted bandwith?? Anyhow, as alot of people have said, the fishing reports section was my favorite forum on the site. I hate to see it remain this way. Sharing information on areas i have been fishing lately is something that i consider part of flyfishing. If one is worried that by sharing information on a fly fishing site will ruin there "quiet places" then it comes down to personal choice on whether to post or not. But if someone is out to help others buy sharing information they will find other ways to HELP others.

jim m.

07-11-2002, 06:50 PM

OK……Sorry for the rant, but this has to be said:

I think that a huge part of fly-fishing is being missed here because of detailed fishing reports. What ever happened to:
Go to the creek/lake...
Observe the water, the fish and look at bugs to figure out what they are feeding on...
Apply what you have just learned...
Catch fish!

It’s as if steps 2 & 3 simply don’t need to exist anymore. To me, those steps are the most rewarding.

With some of the reports I’ve seen, I have to ask myself: How much hand holding does one really need here??? I wonder if some of you guys wake up in the morning w/ all of your clothes for the day neatly laid out for you so you don’t have to figure out what to wear on your own! I enjoy hearing about someone’s great day of fishing just as much as anyone else. I am genuinely happy for that person. Where it happened or how it happened is irrelevant to me.

This solution is great because it allows the folks who have no problem providing very detailed info in a fishing report, for example, “Go to this GPS coordinate, position yourself westward facing the big pine tree, tie on this fly, in this size and cast behind the big rock upstream and to your left” to do so. If that’s what floats your boat you can do that. And by all means please do! Give it to whomever you wish as long as they ask for it.

On the receiving end, all one has to do to get info like the aforementioned, is to request it in the forum. If ya don’t have the hammies to ask about what’s working on the incredibly mysterious and difficult Lower Provo.….you don’t get the info. Pretty simple.
I think most will discover that just about everyone who is a regular here will share information to help out and most likely bend over backwards for someone who is new to the sport. I have never posted a report on this site. But if someone is looking for some info, and I can help him or her out through an email…chances are I will. Now I’m participating more…which really is the point here.
Why should someone be able to hit the site everyday, get the low down on what’s happening and then not contribute???? At least this way they have to ask for the info!

Most importantly, the weight of sharing this information falls on the individual who is willing to give it out and not on the Utah On the Fly website. I’m not trying to (nor can I) speak for Mike or Jason, but after seeing the response to the poll question on reporting and crowds, I know that I wouldn’t want the weight of that scenario on my shoulders.

Once again, sorry for the rant and lengthy post.
Mike and Jason, keep up the good work.
It's a good thing I’m going fishing tonight………

Quill Gordon

07-11-2002, 08:06 PM

Love it! Some of you guys get a map, pick a river, creek, or a lake maybe a pond, drive there, shake some bushes, turn some rocks, watch the water, BASICALLY GET OFF YOUR --- AND DO THE WORK! You'll learn something, it will add to your fly fishing experience. Quit depending on reports. Maybe, Mike & Jason should just delete the report forum, I wouldnt find that to be radical at all. What I find that is radical is people posting about every waterway in the state, about what fly to use, hot spots, hatches, fish caught, you name it. NOW THATS RADICAL OR INSANE! I think there being generous with keeping the reports forum open.

LandGuppy

07-11-2002, 08:14 PM

Mike.....I was referring to a reply made by Jason after Curtis mentioned that he had done well on a local stream without mentioning a name. I would refer directly to it, but I can't access it with the search engine since that forum has been taken down.

I still don't see how removing the forum is going to relieve overcrowding on our smaller streams. The fact is, if the fishing is hot somewhere, it will get out. I guarantee it. And I still maintain that if you think you've got a "secret spot" to protect, you're kidding yourself, unless you've got access to private land. I hate to say it, but somebody from Fish Tech has probably been to your secret hole within the last week and he's telling everybody that comes into the shop about it.

Hopefully it won't take us long to realize that taking down the reports forum isn't alleviating our problems with angling pressure. I would kindly ask everybody to take an objective look at whether or not this measure is helping, and I pledge to do the same.

By the way, Jason and Mike, I'll second what nhancock said about the other areas of this site. I can say that my entymology has improved a great deal because of your efforts.

No hard feelings, eh? I still love you guys (in a male-to-male sort of way; don't get any ideas:)).

Cary

07-11-2002, 08:57 PM

There is a flaw in your premise. basically, you, and alot of others, justify internet hot-spotting by pointing out that "The fact is, if the fishing is hot somewhere, it will get out. I guarantee it".

So, just because a guide/ shop/ newspaper/ doug miller report on good fishing, why do you or any other individual need to spout off? Didnt your mother ever tell you that " Just because Henry jumped off the bridge doesnt mean you have too".

I can understand why the aforementioned groups post reports, thier livlihood depends on it. Yours, unless your in the business, does not. So why does an individual hot spot, or post an unsolicited report about a particularly good day of fishing? Why risk overcrowding? Even if you believe its not likely to have an impact, why take a chance? I've heard the "sharing" take on this, and I reject it. there is e-mail, a telephone, ect. which are a far better way to share info than shouting to the whole WWW.

Quill G hit it right on, now, if you want to know whats going on, you'll have to ask. Is there anything wrong with that?

A member recently posted under Nate's "Apology" thread about such reports being "in the tradition of flyfishing". What a crock that was. A much older tradition is quietly keeping the good spots under your hat. Do you think if the internet was around in Traver's day he'd post the coordinates of his favorite beaver dams?

By example, look at how some of the most respected authors in the sport handle this sort of thing, Gierach, McClane, Traver, even Jim Harrison (yes, he writes some excellent flyfishing pieces!). And if anyone doenst know the take these guys have (or had), then they havent been in the sport long enough, which may explain the desire for public reports.

Lastly, you picked a bad example (FishTech) to illustrate your point about shops aggessively reporting out of the way places. Perhaps Sportsmans Warehouse (does anyone actually fish that works there?) .

Now, If anyone has some recent info regarding the conditions in the Valentine Lake area (little Wind River) of the Winds, I'd appreciate a report. By e-mail, please.

-Cary

matt

07-11-2002, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Jason B
Just don't like it, put it back the way it was.
Originally posted by ezlehappy
By taking out the reports you take out the comradery.

I'll miss the old reports forum -- it was entertaining, informational, and for the most part responsible.

-Matt

pathaws

07-11-2002, 09:55 PM

The open nature of the reports is really the only thing that distinguishes this site from any other flyfishing sites. I mean all the people seem nice on here, but that is the case on all the sites, nice guys, but don't want to report on any specific fishing hole. The willingness to give specific places is the difference between friendly flyfishermen who enjoy the sport and those that think that because they have been doing it for 15 years and use a creel made out of willows they shoudln't have to fish within 400 yards of anybody.

matt

07-11-2002, 10:05 PM

Alright I'm bracing myself for some major backlash on this one -- if bandwidth concern is the real issue at hand here, why not consider creating a place for donation's on the website ... or maybe even imposing a small membership fee?

Mike/Jason, what do you think?

Teewinot

07-11-2002, 10:20 PM

Instead of creating monthly dues, why don't we each pitch in and tie up 5 to 10 flies, send them all in together to be put in a kit and auctioned off. The money then could go to Mike and Jason to cover the fees for this site. I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it disappear if the funding ever becomes an issue.

I know that even selling off a bunch of flies would only cover a small portion, but it would be a real easy way to help out if it's needed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be honest here -- I would also rather not see the reports taken away. I've never even used them to plan where I'm going fishing, but I find it very interesting to me to hear about all of the different areas and what types of fish are being caught and what they were using to catch them. Also who wants to read a whole section on "Hey I want to go fish the ----- e-mail me a report"

This issue will never be resolved as we've seen from the posts over the past couple of weeks, but honestly who hasn't done a search on the internet to find out the conditions at a particular fishing hole?

If the report section never comes back I'll still find this site to be helpful and interesting, but I'd rather not see them disappear-----Just my opinion

robinsoj

07-11-2002, 10:34 PM

That is how I feel Jim M. You're not really fly fishing if you're just following instructions from somebody's fishing report telling exactly where/when/how/with what to fish. But, for the most part I don't think people do this. It's just the poster's courtesy and they know people would ask anyway.

I would miss the continous random fishing reports. I enjoyed reading about the places I like to fish and hearing about other places that I will probably never even see. It's mostly why I use this web site (probably 80%). I will probably drift to other web sites if the reports are taken away forever and this new idea doesn't work out.

I think the reports forum should work as it did before, but because there are a lot of users now you'll have to follow some rules or your report will be deleted. Maybe limit fishing reports that specify the location to lakes because streams are more affected by small increases in angler pressure. Yes, I do like reading fishing reports talking about a day someone had without knowing where they were.

Anyway, if I continue to use this web site, which includes fishing reports, I'd be willing to make a small donation to keep things going. Donations would help with costs for bandwidth, hardware, software, time, etc.

HookInMouth

07-11-2002, 11:16 PM

I would like to applaud Mike and Jason for taking down the reports section. I have never posted a report to an open forum and never will. As of late, it has become just too much hand holding as several people have already pointed out, and I must agree that detailed reports take away one of the finer points of our sport. It may be more difficult for the novice fly fisher without detailed information on what to use and exactly where, but has everybody forgotten that effort put into an endeavor usually brings rewards. Of what value are the rewards if they come so easily? I find the other sections of this forum to be quite useful and will always be a daily visitor. Did anybody else notice the rapid rise in membership to this site, once membership was required to get into the reports forum? Since there where no membership fees, this did absolutely nothing to curtail the distribution of this information. As far as the bandwidth concern, I was noticing how all of sudden a few people are exceeding their daily posting limit. Can a person really have 10 meaningful contributions a day and do we really need to know what a few individuals are doing every minute of their life? It seems like email or another forum should be used for so many of these types of discussions.

DaveA

07-11-2002, 11:27 PM

Removing the reports won't reduce the crowds, there are just too many people who flyfish.

I started flyfishing seriously about fourteen years ago (fooled around with it for about fifteen years before that). My buddies and I would go to the Lower Provo (no Middle in those days) on a Saturday and fish any hole we wanted. If we didn't catch any there, we'd move to another. Of course, this is impossible today. If you go to the Lower on Saturday, you better get there early so you can find a hole. And don't even think about moving, because you won't find another hole without someone in it and if you try to go back to your old spot, somebody else will be in it when you get back.

If you want to reduce crowding on the river, restrict flyfishing to those of us who were doing it prior to 1990.

Larry S.

07-11-2002, 11:37 PM

....but looking at some of the requests and some of the responses I don't see what is being saved or anything being any different than before.

Check them out.

D.C.

07-12-2002, 12:08 AM

I would like to also commend Mike and Jason for closing the reports section. I read them occaisionally but would cringe when someone carelessly reports on a quiet place. I think those who have fly fished for a long time enjoy finding places on their own and figureing out what methods and flies to use to be successful.
I was shown a few quiet places when I started out, and I still like to keep them to myself or maybe take someone there. But I have discovered many more of these smaller creeks on my own. I also think that I have come to appreciate them more, because I have had to figure it out myself.

I don't think that reporting on a small stream will turn it into the Provo. But some of these streams cannot even handle a little bit of pressure. I have to shake my head when I read a report like this: Fished ------- creek today. lots of good fishing but the best thing about it was that there were no other people there". Does that need an explanation? I think reports on the big rivers are fine-even sometimes comical. How many times can you read" "Fished the Lower Provo today. Just an average day. Caught around 30 fish all on a red back sow bug. Most were in the 19" to 22" range. sure.

IMO, this is by far the best ff site/forum out there. Lots of good information here. I like the threads on conservation, tying and the advice on ff equipment. I don't post much, but I do enjoy the camaraderie here and I don't think that will be affected at all by closing the reports section. Seems like a great bunch of people here.

Mike and Jason - good job.

Jason B

07-12-2002, 03:59 AM

reads reports go out like there "hands are being held" and catch fish. NO
Do they go out with a little edge on what to expect. YES

I could see it being true if the fishing didn't change daily and even hourly. If i fished exactly like what is on the reports i would probably not catch nearly as many fish as otherwise. I take what i read and use it with my individualized techniques that each of us have. We all fish differently and use the information differently.

Trout4x

07-12-2002, 04:16 AM

I liked it with the reports, With locations.

You say it is an experiment, but we all know that the report section as we knew it are gone. You will not go back. I wish it would

Those that think it caused over crowding are up in the night!

Trout4x

MOKE

07-12-2002, 04:50 AM

As long as we are lining up for input.....MOKE speaks.

Serious KUDOS for the decision guys.
Not to stop the rumored or disputed spread of crowding, just a good old fashioned societal shake up!!!
;)...I love that stuff!

I'm really torn on this, so I'm going to split the opinion line.

Part of me thinks that data base if properly used is going to be sorely missed.
I preach to the people that I have taught to keep a journal of events in the days fishing. Its a do as I say, not as I do situation. But this is most helpful to the newbies.
I don't keep a journal because I've seen this cycle happen time and time again for most of my "aware existance" (5+ yrs old). I know, really poor argument, but I can still visualize the best moments...so?

I would like to see vague reports for areas...i.e., "I fished a south east Uinta stream, and found the fish to be ...., the bugs to be...., and I caught...., fish started rising at ..? temp.
Or I hit a Southern stream and found.....et al
There is not that big a difference from one steam to the next as far as hatches go, so general area will work just fine, and provide the info, or boasting opportunity.
I agree totally with Mike on this one.

This is wonderful stuff for me, or anyone else who happens to have a heart left in the state, but aren't day to day locals.

Anyone with a half a brain can access an archive and find out what has been working in a certain area, season, location.......
So in my opinion there is a valid need for this sort of data base.
Sort of a community journal.
Though it shouldn't be a replacement for old fashioned on stream time.

On the other hand I do cringe when I see the ill advised report on quality quiet water. IMHO.

Someone stated something about posting personal items on this forum.

There is a theory of community, and camaraderie that develops in a forum community like this, with family and with community come issues, sometimes related to fishing sometimes not.
These little glimpses into someone else life are what can make for the truly wonderful undertones and colorings that make this place fun.
Is there anything wrong with a little light hearted look into another forum members personal life?
I think not, and I have made some very good friendships with other forum members based on some of thier colorful off topic comments.
THATS COMMUNITY!
If you really don't care for it...don't read it.
Mike and Jason have a good managerial style in how they run this forum.
If they feel that anyone is out of hand...they shut them down.

I'm really rambling this time!

Bravo on the shake up!
Be careful with the database!(I'm a musical archivist as well!)
Keep fishing and reporting...just not so specific on the lesser waters.
We as humans have already impacted the planet enough.
Think about what your action will produce.

Peace
MOKE

Fred

07-12-2002, 05:16 AM

why not have a fishing reports forum with threads about specific locations. For instance:

Lower Provo

Middle Provo

Weber

Strawberry

Jordanelle

Deer Creek

Mantua

Wyoming

Idaho

And, maybe, a dozen of the waters that are reported on most frequently. Then, have a "suggestions" thread, where people can add suggestions for a fly fishing report form: e.g. i'd like a thread about the Green River below Flaming Gorge.

Jason

07-12-2002, 06:26 AM

Like Mike said, it's just an experiment to see if it works. It's up to all of us to make it work. For example, if I requested some info how the fishing has been on the Ogden, I would appreciate 3-4 emails from individuals who have recently fished it and get there personal experience and opinion. Plus, you can reply back and ask other questions, etc. It may create a more personal experience with other UOTFly members. Who knows, we may decide to switch it back to how it was. I think our main reason for doing this was to cut down on hot spotting on our local 'quiet places' that don't need the extra pressure and to possibly lower bandwidth. We've got almost 700 members and only about 30% post something on a regular basis. The rest just read the reports and browse the board once in awhile and don't participate.

Fred, I like you're idea. That may be a better something we do in the future.

Don't get me wrong, we like the reports that people give. I like to read them just to read them. I've learned a lot from other's experiences.

So, let's give this a try and we'll see how it goes. FISH ON!
Matt, we've actually thought about you're idea alot and decided that would be the last resort to keep the site running. Getting any sort of corporate sponsorship has been like pulling teeth so we've pretty much given up on that idea. I know a lot of the members would be happy to be a volunteer paying member, but the other 80% probably won't help out at all.

Why not take Jim M.'s advice and figure it out the old fashioned way and go fishing blindly without any suggestions. I think it's all part of the fly fishing experince anyway.

suckerfish

07-12-2002, 07:19 AM

I haven't taken the time to read everyone's responses, but here's my take: I totally understand why Mike and Jason feel the need to take responsibilty for overcrowding (I do believe reports contribute to the problem), and I think that anyone who truly loves the sport would want to look out for it. However, I don't get out on the water as much as I would like because of school, family, work, etc., and it's nice to hear a few stories about how the rivers are fishing. If it were only the stories I was after, I would be satisfied with a vague description of the experience, but I happen to be fairly new to the sport, and I always go out by myself, and any information I can glean from a report contributes to my learning. I DO agree with keeping quiet places unknown... but rivers like the Provo, Weber, and Green... I don't think that posting a report on these populated rivers will make much of a difference. In fact, the more fishermen that frequent the popular streams the better. That way they don't get out, explore, and find my little treasures! Am I the only one who actually reads posts in order to find out where everyone else fishes... then avoid these spots? Want to know how many times I have fished the lower by Vivian Park? Answer: never. By the tunnel: twice in the past year. I don't know maybe I'm just antisocial... is that a common trait for a fisherman?

Ouzel

07-12-2002, 07:28 AM

a way of life and some times it takes awhile to adjust to it, or not.
Larry S. and MOKE touched on two concerns I had.

Where will my fishing buddy Walks-In-Water post his prose? As I remember he only posted them in the "Fishing Reports". Although I can get get his stuff first hand they always seemed to have a positive impact on the site. But this is a solveable problem.

I would always touch base in the F reports to accumlate data as I was keeping a log. A Hatch Chart for each river, which flies were currently working and daily temps. Anyway, I did use that file but will not fall down, shaking all over because it may be temporarily gone.

My memory tells me quite often people would ask for reports about a river they planned to fish so the only difference is the reponse will be through email rather than a posted up on a bulletin board.

I am in fact surprised at the tone of some of the comments towards Mike and Jason. These two gentlemen have provided us with a free and very useful service. You forget the daily work they put in riding herd on this site and having to referee the scrapes of the kids in the sandbox.

The experiment will continue in any event and Mike and Jason do not need my blessing. They are doing this because they feel it is an answer to a current tech problem. I support that.

DirtyBugger

07-12-2002, 02:14 PM

I don't see the harm in a vauge location report.
"Fished Strawberry", or" hit the weber today", are acceptable. These report shouldn't cause any rush to your location.
With out any details we open the door for fictional ( more than usual) reports.

LandGuppy

07-12-2002, 02:34 PM

I'll second what DirtyBugger said.....good idea. Saying "Weber below Rockport" leaves out several dozen miles of detail, which is a far cry from "exact GPS coordinates" which has been implied in several posts.

I'm not asking anybody to agree with me, but just to look at the facts over the next little while. If those of you who think I'm full of crap see a difference in crowding at your favorite spot, then I'll agree this was a great idea. If there is no change, then I hope you all will agree that the reports page should be restored.

Also, I don't think reports give away all the secrets of fishing a certain area. Example: Last time I went to the L. Provo, it was supposed to be PMD's, stones, and BHPT's, but I caught most of my fish on a Yong. I know we've all had similar experiences.

Although I carry a seine, I see a need to have hatch/fly info, especially for newcomers to our sport. Not everybody can ID insects in the drift like some of the more elite fishers on this site. If that were you, how would you know what to use? People just getting into fly fishing could use the tips to catch more fish. I doubt any of us would be involved in this sport if we didn't catch fish. Maybe if newcomers had more specific advice, they would catch more fish, get more into the sport, learn about insects, purchase a seine, and be less reliant on fishing reports like some of you.

Dale

07-12-2002, 03:38 PM

Mike/Jason,
I've thought alot abt this idea and would like to express my thoughts on the subject. It looks like I'm not in the majority in my thinking.

I am one of those who watches this site regularly, but posts seldom. I love ffing, I think about it every day. It is a source of great pleasure to me, often by proxy through reading and talking to others about the sport. If I have 15 min to spare you can usually find me here reading others posts on UOTF. Because of personal commitments I can't go as often as most of you seem to. If I get out a few hours twice a month I'm thrilled about it. When I do go I often make a decision about where to go based on some of the reports I read in the recent past. I doubt that I spoil anyone elses catch rate or crowd their private hole. Is that so bad? Am I abusing the site (or anyone else) by using it the way I am?

I understand why you need to think in terms of reducing hits to keep your costs down in running this site. You guys do me personally a great service by keep it up. For that I thank you. I cant help but wonder if there isn't a resource to be found from the members themselves to help share to some degree your expence. I, for one, would be happy to donate something towards the maintance of this site. Perhaps others feel the same. There is nothing else of this caliber like it. It fills a need for me to the point of paying for its use.

I vote for finding a way to keep the reports a part of this site.

mcgx2

07-12-2002, 05:54 PM

One of the things that made this site different than the others was the info on local waters and the reports. For most of the other forums you can find similar discussion groups on other websites. However the reports forum was one of the main things that made this site different from the others and one of the things that brought everyone to the site. It is the reason that I first started coming here. With the reports section gone I think this site will be taking a step towards becoming just another flyfishing website instead of the great site it was.

mcg

ezlehappy

07-12-2002, 05:57 PM

just curious, what is the cost if you upgraded your bandwidth in order to keep the reports page on?

What is the monthly cost, and what is the yearly cost? (assuming present volume with a 5 % increase monthly of hits) Is that a safe estimate?

ezlehappy

07-12-2002, 06:09 PM

Would it be possible to make just the reports section a paid access section, perhaps $5/month or so. Collecting every six months or so. That's a measley $30/6 months service, and if you combine that with even 100 paying members, that's 3000/6 months. Hopefully that should cover the extra expenses.

Is this an option?

Barbless

07-12-2002, 06:12 PM

I personally enjoyed the reports section. I found some of the reports entertaining ("I caught 40 fish in an hour on the berry", The 14 inch rainbow almost took me to my backing, I got dragged 100 yards downstream"). That's funny stuff. I found many of the reports to be informative. They didn't cause me to run off to the 'hot' spot, but they did provide education on some of the more popular waters. This is a great site. Thanks for all you do.

at56

07-12-2002, 06:49 PM

I to enjoyed the stories that were shared by those posting especially that 14 incher one it reminded me of a couple of times that I have done it. Anyway I agree with this decision I would actually read the reports to see what flies people were recomending for the hatch and then try to use a different imitation to match the hatch. I think as the number of members grows on this website this sort of thing would be inevitable. Even if only one in twenty or thirty people that read the report were to go and fish that area for many of the small streams that could provide a lot of pressure.

This new system I thik will provide an even greater oppurtunity to get out and meet each other as I have already recieved invites to go fishing with other members after posting a request about what was working on a specific water.
at56
P.S. Just so everyone knows there are reports that are posted for many of the larger waters they just aren't updated regularly, but now with the omission of the reports forum it will be updated more regularly. You get there from the home page by clicking on reports (just below Forums) in the mainmenu on the lefthand side of the screen.

buddyboy

07-12-2002, 07:56 PM

This thread has got to be eating up more bandwith than the reports section ever did!

I say bring it back. What's the first question you ask when you see a fellow fly fisherman on the river? It's usually something along the lines of asking for a brief report. Nothing wrong with that, doesn't mean I'm lazy or not willing to check out conditions for myself, just means I'm looking for a little direction. Plus, I highly doubt taking the reports off will alleviate overcrowding (if I understand correctly that's the main reason behind this expirament).

I doubt Mike and Jason are looking for more work. If they are though, how about people e-mail their reports directly to you guys and then you choose which ones are posted?

ScottT

07-12-2002, 11:32 PM

OK, now you're taking all the fun out of it. It's not like every fly/hardware/doughball flinger in Utah hangs out here.

A lot of paranoia is generated everytime "Joe Fishguy" reports some success at a particular "hotspot". Additionally, from reading the reports around here for quite awhile, some folks just enjoy telling the rest of us when they've had a good day - as opposed to those other days we all know all too well. I for one vicariously enjoy their experiences. I may not know many of you personally, but frequent reading your posts has given me some insight into what type of fisherman you are.

GET OVER IT.

Most of us around here a very familiar with the "lay of the land" in Utah and it's very, very, rare that a significant fishing breakthrough appears on this website. Remember the ancient 10% - 90% adage. Skill is still a necessity to the successful flyfisherman.

Please return this forum to the original format or we're going to lose the interest and input of some people grown accustomed to sharing tales with around here.

My 2 cents worth...

RAW

07-13-2002, 01:33 AM

Because I write about fly fishing and fly tying, I sometimes wear two hats on this issue. Most of my writing has been about fly tying because I don't want to draw atttention to any particular water. On occassion I slip the name of a water or two. In fact I'm working on an article about a particular part of our state right now. I have strong feelings about posts, that to me, have little value to any of us...such posts as "Fished Skunk Creek; caught 40 trout in 3 hours." Just chest beating IMO.

John Gierach has said, "I guess you never understand the full weight of a moral principle until you've violated it once and seen what happens. The principle pertaining to secret spots goes something like: hide the truck while fishing and keep your mouth shut afterwards. Lie if necessary, even if it means you won't be able to brag.
So you live and learn, and today I am the very model of discretion. I don't know nothin'. Never heard of the place. Sorry, can't help you. I've even been told that I now have a reputation for being closedmouthed about fishing spots. I hope so, because if someone is toying with the idea of letting me in on something great, such a reputation could just make the difference."

As I am reminded often. We can sometimes take this fishin' stuff way too seriously. I don't think the reports posts will make or break our experiences. I admit I read them but found most of them to be some of the best contemporary fiction of our time. Fiction is enjoyable, so it probably wouldn't hurt to bring it back.

Smiling dude again :)

RB_Nielsen

07-13-2002, 04:20 AM

Ahem - I have yet to see a shred of evidence that supports the notion that specific, detailed, unmasked fishing reports on this site in any significant way (or even insignificant way) have ever led to overcrowding either short or long term. The posts by pundits here in this forum certainly contain a lot of speculation and theoretical supposition. But so far no one has supplied specific supporting facts or proof of any kind.

In all reality, folks, there is no reputable evidence that even remotely supports the proposition that specific, detailed fishing reports on this site have EVER led to overcrowding of any kind. But, assuming for a minute that someone with the proper expertise had in fact done a valid survey, then there still exists the issue of defining exactly what it is that constitutes overcrowding, and then coming up with a formula one can apply that musters in any reasonable scientific or even socially acceptable term.

Until overcrowding can be defined, how can a valid claim of overcrowding ever be made? Without such fundamental knowledge and facts, all of the discussions here (along with these latest schemes by the well-intended site hosts for masking the information) are nothing more than knee jerk reactions and an interesting study in self-absorption.

Never mind defining overcrowding, I dare anyone to come forward with just hard reputable facts. How about these well-spoken pundits supplying any instances of more than one person showing up at a sacred fishing hole that can be irrefutably linked to a report from this site. How about just one? Anyone? Anyone?

Cary

07-13-2002, 05:01 AM

Frankly, Mr. Nielsen

Ahem.

Its a matter of creed my friend, you either have it, or not. A true "Brother (or sister, as it may) of the Fly" will not hotspot.

You can demand all the proof you want, however, the tone of your post clear, and your mind is made up.

If you need info, ask for it, chnaces are good you'll get more than you could use.

-Cary

Trout4x

07-13-2002, 06:06 AM

I like the idea of doing a river survey on some "overcrowded Rivers" let the fisherman tell us why are they fishing & why are they fishing this hot spot!

2nd You are trying to keep river names quiet, how does requesting a report of a river by name keep it quiet? If you see 100 people asking for the Strawberry River, or any other place don't you think that will spark some interest and soon that will cause over crowding. People will start thinking fishing must be hot I am heading there to find out.

Next thing we will be requesting information for the place one might think, hey this is my "secret spot" and rip on someone for asking about it.

walksinwater

07-13-2002, 06:36 AM

To Mike and Jason,
to those of seniority posting, those of junior posting.

May I express my humble observations.

On a map draw a concentic circle from a major metro area (slc) that represents ! hour or less driving time. Now factor major hiways and roads, non private property access. Now add the rivers and steams with good wide flows. Add an abundance of stocked fish.

Note where the
factors intersect each other.

Are these the areas where the crowds are?

Add another circle, another hour drive smaller water flow, more difficult access.
Intersect the streams with your roads.

The begining of your quiet secret holes?

Most of the flyfishers that I have met on the crowded sections were unaware of this site.

As for the fishing report forum being with drawn. Yes I will miss it. That is how some of us met, after seeing how close we were fishing to each other.

However, this site is constantly, progressivly changing. There is obviously a great amount of dedication of time and resources from Mike and Jason. My thanks to them in improving flyfishing in Utah.

Lets see where this idea will take us.

"You won't know til ya try it!"

T. Edison
C. Lindburgh
B. Gates
C. Colombus
Bill C. and Monica L.

:o)

All you all have a good time fishin'
an watch out for them Rattlers.

MOKE

07-13-2002, 01:28 PM

RB Nielson

You wanted irrefutable evidence that reports lead to overcrowding?
YOU are from Iowa according to your profile.
I am from California.
That makes two extra outsiders that are privvy to reports.
Does this add to crowding? I don't know. We are just two examples...there are more.
What it does let me know is that this info doesn't just stay in Utah!

Good luck on your Aug. 4x4 fishing trip....sounds fun.....count on dust!

Everybody...
Lets not all forget that this is just an experiment....Don't get your panties in a wad!

MOKE

RAW

07-13-2002, 03:19 PM

R.B.

Mantua was packed about a month ago. The reports said good fishing and people from this site decided to hold a fish party there. Was it overcrowded? Debatable term. Even the fish cops were there in force. Did they catch on to a potential gold mine of Holier-than-thou fin clippin' fly fishers and law breakers from viewing posts on this site? Debatable again. Yes, posts will send people to the rivers and lakes. Why do people read them...in preparation of eciding where to go?

Anyone notice the increase of fly fishers on the Logan after AI (Doug Millers) fishing report a couple weeks ago that the Logan was hot? I did. Was it overcrowded? IMO no, but I did have to find a different place to fish than what I planned because someone was in a spot I normally fish.

Bob Carmichael said, "Only take dogs and small children to your favorite fishing spots. On second thought, better just take dogs."

Anyone ever been disappointed after reading a fishing report, planning, getting to the water only to find out "you should have been here yesterday?"

Jason B

07-13-2002, 04:26 PM

Was Mantua packed with just fly fisherman. Probably not. If you were to ask people flyfishing at a certain spot i bet the majority (90%) did not read a great report and floored it all the way there. Think of the desires of flyfisherman. They all change. The Lower Provo has been fishing great all year, its no suprise. Have crowds increase on strawberry river since Red Hot Strawberry report, Please, you would have to be an idiot to think that. There is a few to many paraniod people out there that think, if i post a report my spot or river or lake will go to crap. How about, if i post a report someone might go out, enjoy himself, maybe catch a few fish, learn something new.
Majority of use live along the Wasatch Front, whats the population here. Like Walks was saying, majority of the people don't have time to drive 3 hours to a quiet spot. If YOU are paranoid that by posting a report you will overcrowd a place, DONT POST. Leave those that want to help others alone. If you want a quiet spot, drive a little.

walksinwater

07-14-2002, 05:28 AM

can't you satisfy everyone yet!

Anyway what breakfast eatery did you go to before heading out to these few rivers?

Jeremy Booth

07-14-2002, 03:24 PM

I'm fearful that this experiment is going to be the beginning of the end for the vast majority of the people who frequent this site. Please put it back to the way it was.
Jeremy

Egros

07-15-2002, 01:00 AM

Had to go to CO for four days, and I was looking forward to seeing some reports on how guys (gals) were doing on the Utah waters......I guess not for now.. Hope to see it back soon.

Curtis

07-15-2002, 02:14 PM

Hey there, how ya doing? Havent seen (read) you around for a while. Actually, I did most of my steak eating from a camp stove on this trip. I still owe you some info on where to locate golden trout in the area. Good to hear ya again.

pathaws

07-15-2002, 02:18 PM

Like I said, without the open, informative fishing reports this site is only a little better then any of the other FF site. The Fly swaps and the tying clubs are cool, but the reports were still the best part, and this one thread is eating up your bandwidth because everyone loves to wax philosophical on the "ethics" of telling people where fish are biting.

HookInMouth

07-15-2002, 07:15 PM

RAW you are very correct, in the fact that Doug Miller hot spotting the Logan lead to a signficant increase in pressure the following week. I spent a lot of time on the Logan as well as two other northern Utah rivers that week and I noticed it as well. I also noticed some reports on other forums about a specific location on the river that had more people on it than I have seen the whole year. We should plan on a small army of people fishing from pontoon boats on the Provo after this weeks edition.

Jason B

07-16-2002, 01:26 AM

much different than all the rafters

RAW

07-16-2002, 01:41 AM

You're right hooksinmouth. Retail fishing stores are already reporting increased sales in pontoon boats. And you thought the underllying premise of the show was just to show how you could fish the Provo from a pontoon. Sales!

Tired of rowing your pontoon boat on a lake? I hear the new windsail adaptors will be out next year. :)

rob g

07-16-2002, 03:01 AM

I would have to jump on the bandwagon that is against this new system of getting reports. I have never gone to a specific water based on a report posted here or anywhere else. Usually I decide to go to "some river". I then might go to a fishing report to see a recent report on what water conditions were, if there was a hatch, etc. Maybe I'll tie up a few of the suggested patterns, but that is most likely the end of it. Upon arrival at "some river" I still have to observe the water, look for hatches or nymphs, and present my pattern to the fish. It's rarely a matter of tying on the old PMD and dropping it on the water that someone said was hot.
This is by far my favorite flyfishing site, however I think that reports are an important piece of viewing this type of site. I come here to learn and share ideas, not to find out where I'm going on my next trip. Imagine a flyshop that didn't give out current conditions and fishing reports. I'll bet you wouldn't go there to often. I doubt the experiment will impact crowding on any waters, but it is a noble idea, and perhaps I'll be wrong.

rob g

Neal

08-23-2002, 10:50 PM

I'm a frequent participant on the Northern California Flyfishers Board (NCFFB), and we have had many of the same issues aired on the specificity of fishing reports, and the crowds that follow on some of our more popular waters. We eventually established informal guidelines that encouraged people to post reports, but that people could e-mail the author if they wanted more information.

Many streams have miles and miles of access, and a report does not have to describe exactly where a person fished. However, because we are all interested in flyfishing, sharing techniques and flies that worked, observations about the bug activity, water temps, or the weather, are informative ways of making a report interesting, without revealing our secret honey holes.

we had one very lively discussion about the large numbers of fish that one participant would post in his reports (he is memorialized in our FAQs), with some skeptics claiming that he was literally a magnet for more people invading that particular stream.

We've even had lively discussions about the ethics of posting photos, with some flyfishers believing that big fish photos only causes crowded stream conditions. (Actually, the real argument was whether keeping the fish out of the water for a nice photo affected the fish's chances of survival after release.)

Unfortunately (or fortunately), the sport of flyfishing has really become popular. Places that I used to frequent only 2-3 years ago here in California, in which I might see one, maybe two other flyfishers in a whole day, are now crowded with a dozen. I used to fish one popular stream, Putah Creek, in which I might not see another flyfisher all day. The last time I fished Putah, there was a flyfisher at every hole and riffle along my favorite stretch. IT has become so popular that Putah has fallen off the written reports of most Bay Area flyshops.

The fact of the matter is that with so many people becoming interested in flyfishing, people will find your secret spots sooner or later, and whether or not they read this website.

I think its OK to post reports. Just be constructive and discrete about what you report.

If any of you are out visiting in California, check out the NCFFB at ncffb.org. read some of the reports or post a request. People will e-mail you with their information, or they may want to come fishin with you.