There go the wetlands.....

[jdubya]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45595-2002Jan14.html

The above post is from the Washington Post about wetland standards that Clinton put in place being dumped by W. Basically what it is saying is that the old rule "you take an acre of wetlands, you put an acre back" is gonna be dumped be swifter enactment of dredging/fill in/development plans. This will be especially true for private land developers wanting to use wetlands for private housing plots, etc.

I like the following quote the best 'cause it shows the two sided nature of our secretary of the interior

"The Environmental Protection Agency had filed formal comments criticizing the Corps plan for lacking a scientific basis. And as The Post first reported yesterday, the Fish and Wildlife Service had drafted even more critical comments predicting "tremendous destruction of aquatic and terrestrial habitat," but Interior Secretary Gale A. Norton never submitted them to the Corps. After negotiations with the White House Council on Environmental Quality, the Corps agreed to strengthen a few of its proposals to enhance protection of valuable streams and emphasize the agency's commitment to no-net-loss. But the rest of its plan remained intact."

But what does this mean to us? Two immediate projects come to mind. The first is the legacy highway in SLC which proposes to fill in wetlands for a new smog producing highway. Screw the wetlands: ducks, CARP, and other slimy creatures. The protests agaiinst this highway, which have done a good job stalling it, have now lost a major fulcrum.

And my fav, Victory Ranch, which proposes to put a 18 hole golf course in the river bottom of the upper Provo. We wrote letters to the Corps protesting this development 'cause of the wetlands issue. But with these new regs the corps could care less about the difference between a wetlands with spotted frogs versus a luxurious green, diversity killing, carpet of grass.

This change in the game plan does not bode well for a state like utah that is, for the most part, still under developed, and ripe for the picking.

[Aron]

It really is a shame to see the whole state being developed,gated and locked up!

[Jeff Camomile]

Perhaps DrewTrout knows:

How much impact, if any, will the golf course with all its pesticides and chemicals have on the Upper Provo downstream? How much will it affect aquatic life in the river and Jordanelle (and Middle Provo for that matter)?

Also, anyone have any predictions on how much water will be used to keep the golf course green? Will the VR people purchase/use more water rights than what is already being used by the current land owners? Can/will they do this?

I am not educated at all on these subjects, but I am interested if there are scientific/educated answers.

[Scotto]

Jeff,

I have worked extensively with golf courses with pesticide applications. The most commonly used pesticides used in their regular maintenance schedule are fertilizers and fungicides. Utah has very little turf insect problems. The fertilizers are of the most concern to water ways since they leach out of the soil and into the water. The aquatic plants as well as semi aquatic plants will utilize this nutrient input and over populate the stream or river. Still water can be negatively impacted by this input as well. Additionally, commercial fertilizers are designed to solublize in water therefore a potential increase in soluble salts (salinity) can occur without frequent flushes of the water system.

Fungicides, depending on the type used, can range from benign to the water way inhabitants (plants, invertibrates, vertibrates) to causing specific damage to certain inhabitants.

Utah has been working very hard with farmers, golf course superintendents and other agriculture related individuals to implement IPM strategies. IPM stands for Integrated Pest Management. This management technique in a nutshell suggests that pesticide and fertilizer applications occur only when necessary and use of "soft" pesticides or biological controls should be used whenever possible.

Scotto

[DrewTrout]

Jeff;

Scotto did an excellent job of covering the topic. In fact, I would only like to expand on a couple of his comments.

When organic material over populates a system (in this case plants), this material must eventually die. The decomposition of this primarily occurs through aerobic activity. This activity can literally suck all of the oxygen out of a system if, as Scotto stated, it is not flushed.

This may be a problem on the Upper Provo because of low flows during late summer - also the time when oxygen is at its lowests.

Moreso, this may be a problem downriver in Jordanelle. The river will carry these nutrients down stream into the reservoir where they will settle. Anyone familiar with East Canyon? It once had a thriving Kokanee population. Non-Point Source Pollution from Jeremy Ranch and others were responsible for a decline in water quality and the extermination of the Kokanee fishery.

Second: pesticides come in many forms. Some target specific proteins produced by certain "classes" of organisms. Some are more generic and just kill all insects or all fungi or all plants. Either way, that could impact the organisms living in and around the river.

There are other issues such as pH that are affected.

Regardless, if the golf course is created, it will impact the river. It may change flows and alter insect life. I am sorry that I can not be more specific than that. I do not have a good understanding of the entire proposed project. I only hope that if they are allowed to go forward, the state will work closely with them and take the necessary steps to preserve the river.

[RAW]

I wonder how much of a buffer zone would be needed to help keep fertilizers and pesticides from actually running off into the river? I know on the Ogden River Parkway they were going to plant grass and put asphalt right next to the river. Several letters to the editor and appearances at the planning meetings helped create a buffer zone of natural wooded growth to keep actual pollutants from directly washing into the river. I realize that some pollutants still leach down and makes their way into the river, but hopefully not in as lethal doses as would happen with direct runoff.

[Fred]

Interesting comments.

From what I understand, the Victory Ranch is going to billed as a fishing destination, as well as a place to golf. So, you would think keeping the river clean would be a priority to them.

[twarner2448]

Hello all. I'm new to this great forum.

At the risk of being ostracized from the group I just joined, I feel the need bring out some points concerning the Legacy Parkway. Luckily, Legacy came to be before JWs more relaxed wetland policy came to out, and more importantly before it was determine that the Corp of Engineers did not have juristiction over the impacted wetlands. As such, the final ratio of preserved or enhanced wetlands to wetlands filled in is about 6:1, or 600 wetland acres preserved to 114 acres filled. That number does not include the surrounding lands (uplands to the Corp of Engineers) which in all total 2000+ acres preserved along most of the western side of the highway.

What this does is create a buffer between development and the Great Salt Lake. Which is a good thing because even though the Corp is supposed to stop development in wetlands it doesn’t happen. Really, how is the Corp going to stop a Joe Smoe from filling in wetlands on his personal property to increase the value and make it more attractive for development?

The Legacy does not preclude a commuter or light rail line. In fact everyone recognizes the need for one of these even with Legacy. By the way UDOT just donated 10 million to UTA to develop a rail line next to I-15 and Legacy.

[RHeppy]

Way to go Curtis this is the first time, I do believe, I have to agree with something you have said!!!

[Larry S.]

If not building the Legacy Highway will keep Salt Lake fisherman out of Cache County and Idaho(or at least keep them bottled in a traffic jam) then I agree with JW and Curtis.

(just kidding!)

Two out of the last three times I travelled south to Salt Lake I have been stuck in a massive jam in Davis County. I don't know what, but something has to be done. We are ALL part of the problem.

[Indylab]

Well, if it goes through, I won't have anywhere to pheasant hunt at all anymore. Also, the people in Davis County knew that if they live in Davis County it would be congested on I-15. They made the choice to live there, so deal with it. I live in Bountiful and work in Farmington. If I worked in Salt Lake I wouldn't live where I do. Check out the article on urban sprawl in the current National Geographic. Our state is going to have more problems in the near future and our wildlife will suffer due to our current political leadership.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

This is not a promo for any of you to move south, but it sure is nice not having to deal with the stupid problems you guys have up there! Indylab--if it goes through, there are other places in the state that have pheasants. Not to bag on you Wasatch front folk too much, but some of you need to realize there is fishing and hunting outside of the 1 hour radius you give yourselves from the Wasatch front.

[Mr. Loopy]

Yeah, nothing to complain about down here. It's great.

[Wes Johnson]

1. The compaction of the soils needed to support such a highway will cause a blocking affect to the natural subsurface hydrologic drainage from the Wasatch foothills to the Great Salt Lake. Watch for all of the non-wetlands to suddenly become wetlands behind this dike.

2. UDOT noted that their studies showed there would be little interest in a commuter rail. They also noted that the TRAX would only be rarely used. Now it is hard to find space on TRAX during rush hour. As ususal UDOT suffered from a severe case of cranial-rectal inversion.

3. The vehicular traffic from Weber/Davis County's are not the problem with the commute. It is the idiot drivers.

4. Twanner speaks of the number of wetlands that would be preserved. These were already protected by the duck clubs that owned or leased them. It would be nearly impossible to build an industrial complex in those wetlands areas identified to be preserved. Housing projects would fail, the mosquitoes and brimeflies would carry off all pets and offspring of anyone living out there.

5. Another thought: What is going to happen to the duck hunting along the east side of Farmington Bay? Since the Legacy Highway (it is not a Parkway) will be within 600 feet of the duck marsh, your hunting privilages will be further restricted in this area.

Just some thoughts.

[twarner2448]

Yes Parkway is a misnomer, but it is important to distinguish between the Legacy Highway, which is the conceptual highway from Brigham to Nephi, and the Parkway, that part through Davis County.

1) No doubt will wetlands spring up on the east sise of Legacy, Hopefully Legacy will not dry up those onthe west side. the highway design includes culverts to pass shollow groundwater. Some argue that these wetlands are supplied by surface runoff.

2) I believe UDOT assumed something like 10% of the total traffic trough tthe corridor would use some type of transit like TRAX or a commuter rail line. I'm not sure how this relates to the trend in SLC but I'll bet it is close. The question becomes do we make it so bad that people have to choice between a traffic jam and using TRAX?

3) true, true

4) I do not believe any of the lands were not owned by duck clubs, rather private citizens and municipalities. Amazing how fast development plans surfaced after Legacy was announced.

5) Legacy is over 1/4 mile from Farmington Bay wildlife management area. There is also the Legacy Nature Preserve between them.

I really don't like defending Legacy but I feel the need to educate people so I don't get this emotional response that has been propegated.

By the way, do any of you know if the Sierra Club participates in conservation efforts. If so I may join. If not I would hate to see all of my donations go to lawyers!

[jdubya]

the following quote was made-

""By the way, do any of you know if the Sierra Club participates in conservation efforts. If so I may join. If not I would hate to see all of my donations go to lawyers!"""


if it was not for the conservation efforts started by John Muir and continued by the legions of Sierra Club members, you could kiss good bye any number of wild rivers, state and federal parks, wildlife preserves, etc. in the states and across the globe.

Your statement is incredibly stupid, narrow minded, and feeble.

Grow up and think what kind of a world we would have without the Sierra Clubs, the Wilderness Societies, the Nature Conservancies, the Izak Walton Leagues, Trout Unlimited, SUWA's. Save our Canyons' etc.

And feel free to keep your money. Sounds like you will need it for gas....

John Weis

[twarner2448]

I appreciate the efforts of all those groups you mentioned. It was a serious question. Although what followed with was smart assed! I admit I'm ignorant to the approaches of the different groups. I seriously would contribute to the Sierra Club if they do like the other organizations you mentioned and do actual conservation? By conservation I mean using funds to buy land. I'll look into it.

I see the place for all these groups and respect what they do. It's good to have the checks and balances, if you will. It probably doesn't help my cause but I am a TU member.

How many of you take the bus to work every day?

[Juke]

In my opinion the only two conservation groups that really put its money where its mouth is, are the Nature Conservancy, and Ducks Unlimited. They are very active in outright purchasing, or helping obtain conservation easements to protect threatened land. The Nature Conservancy does have a very nice piece of marshland near the GSL.

[twarner2448]

Don't forget Trout Unlimited.

[Juke]

I did remember TU, overrated in my opinion. Take a look at their financial statements some day. Not fiscally responsible for my annual dues.

[Indylab]

A couple of years ago, DU was ranked by WSJ as the worst non-for-profit in its grouping with regards to dollars actually being put back into programs. Nature Conservancy, however, ranks high each year. No matter how much some people don't like the Sierra Club, they fight for wetlands and other land that wildlife needs. They also put a much higher percentage of donated dollars back into programs. I don't want Powell drained, but the Sierra Club is much more than that.

[Mr. T]

I happen to work for a Construction Co. who is a Road Builder, and find the comments on this thread somewhat perplexing.

1st, Without Legacy the I-15 Corridor will become similar to Downtown L.A. in terms of congestion, and congestion and Bumper to Bumper traffic is the # 1 cause of Smog pollution, and therefore Acid Rain.....

2nd, The notion that Building a Roadway creates a Barrier, or a Dam if you will, against the natural flow of water is only partially correct. At first the Blockage is there, but without a Permanent Coffer, or wall, ie: Cement, Clay, Bentonite,etc., and with the proper means of channeling and piping this water, the Engineers will eliminate any form of water buildup on either side of the project.

3rd, The amount of Wetlands to be disturbed is of a minimal amount to accomplish the construction of this project, nothing More..... This issue has been wrangled over for months in the Courts, and more is yet to come.....

4th, the TRUE problem lies within each of us, and the fact that as citizens of the U. S. we are allowed freedoms unparalleled anywhere else in the world.... The freedom to go outside, get in our Auto's, and drive wherever we please..... This is the problem that has led to the need for newer better FREEways, and the Issue over the Legacy FREEway....

Nobody who posts in here would want THIS right to be taken away, so I'm guessing that unless you ride a Bike, or take Trax everywhere you go, then WE are all a part of this solution to Utah's automobile congestion problem!

[twarner2448]

Right. Cars burn fuel most efficiently at 40-50 mph. If you are going slower the car is not only less efficient it is running longer.

Not only are the wetland impacts minimal, 600 aces of wetlands and 2000 acres of land are preserved. Some argue that these wetlands would be preserved anyway...but then how was Legacy ever passed.

Indylab-

What is WSJ?

[Indylab]

Wall Street Journal.

[Wes Johnson]

I believe that WSJ is the Wall Street Journal. A highly respected newspaper, even by the Republicans.

I take it that twaner has never heard about the Lake Bountiful proposal. This was presented by a group of developers who wanted to turn the Farmington Bay area into a freshwater lake so that they could sell condo's along it's shoreline. This concept keeps coming up every five years or so.

A study conducted by Utah State University a few years ago indicated that it would take over 100 years for Lake Bountiful to become clean enough to support carp. Remember some of the sewer drains from SLC to the Great Salt Lake were abandoned less than 40 years ago. I wonder where it all ended up!

This is one of the reasons that a group of developers recently wanted to lay claim to all unused water from Utah Lake and then transfer these water rights to Farmington Bay. This would mean that half of Utah Lake would have to be drained to provide the water they wanted rights to. Not to mention the 65,000 acre feet of spring water along the Jordan River.

How many acres of wetlands have been preserved by our state government along the west side of the proposed Legacy Highway? So far I haven't seen any; all of the wetlands have been purchased or placed under conservation easement by either The Nature Conservany or Utah Open Lands. By the way, the right of way for Legacy Highway is one of the most expensive land acquisitions in Utah. UDOT has paid up to $60,000/acre for the wetlands that they will pave under.

I won't go into memberships; however, mine include The Nature Conservancy, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and by the way Trout Unlimited.

I let my Ducks Unlimited membership drop last year and haven't renewed. I found out that they would not let any of the local chapters spend any of the money they raised at their banquets on local projects. This is why the DU chapter in St George folded.

[Wes Johnson]

Mr. T is right, engineers can do anything. Just look at the Teton Dam, Quail Creek Dam, the homes in Layton that have been removed before they slid down the hill, I-15 between Nephi and Scipio (what a rolly-coaster ride that is).

One of the main objections that the Corp of Engineers noted to the Legacy Highway (it is not free, it is costing us billions) was that UDOT did not fully take into consideration the use of a commuter rail. UDOT in it's closed, febble mind, noted that less than 10% of the commuters would use a commuter rail.

They, UDOT, also noted that TRAX would operate (carry passangers) at less than 10% of its capacity. TRAX has been so successful that they are now going to expand it into West Valley.

Unfortunatelly we are all part of the problem. If TRAX was in place I would take it. Even a bus would be nice, but out here where I live UTA only ran two buses a day to SLC. One at 6AM and the other at 6PM. These proved to be unprofitable for UTA, so they cancelled the service.

[twarner2448]

I have never heard of the Lake Bountiful proposal. What a joke!

UDOT is still negotiating with the City of Centerville for one remaining piece to complete the entire Legacy Nature Preserve. I'd guess They have actually purchased 300-400 acres of actual delineated wetland. Theyhave also set up a bond to fund a manager. They're not sure if theyare going to turn it over to another entity (Nature Conservancy) after their time requirement is expired.

Yes, they've paid as high as $60,000/acre but that was an extreme case for just a small strip for the highway itself.

Wes, I sure hope "out here" doesn't mean a large remote lot by the mountains....I'd be jealous.

[Wes Johnson]

Twaner,

I won't say where I live, but the other morning the temperature was 0 and the wind chill was -40F.

[twarner2448]

burrrrrrrr!!

[Crosby]

Wes- at least you are smart enough to not live in Cache Valley.
took a boiling pan of water out last night and tossed it in the air---turned to vapor.

[Larry S.]

I tried that with a pot of old stew and all it did was mess up my truck !

[Wyoming 2]

Move to Wyoming...the frozen tundra was frigid!