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Minivan
09-03-2008, 04:47 AM
Forty seven days ago the Utah Supreme Court handed down a landmark decision that opened to the public hundreds of miles of Blue Ribbon trout streams and rivers. The ink wasn’t quite dry on Chief Justice Durant’s published opinion when various media outlets, such as the Salt Lake Tribune, immediately heralded the Supreme Court ruling as a windfall for public anglers. For the first time in decades private sections of trout streams were opened to the citizens of Utah.

But curiously enough the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources has been strangely absent in this joyous celebration. One would assume that if Ed (The mayor of Committeeville) Kent was euphoric enough to proclaim “the angling community will do back flips” over this decision, the DWR would find some time in their four day work week to weigh in on a ruling of this magnitude. Wouldn’t you think a brief press release, possibly an announcement on their website, or maybe even a short quote in the newspaper or on television from SOMEBODY within the DWR would be appropriate? This is especially true if you have listened to the DWR whine and preach their bureaucratic buzzwords such as they need to “simplify fishing rules” or they need to “increase angling opportunities” for the last ten years or so. My God wouldn’t you assume the high Court’s interpretation on a law that suddenly opened up one hell of a lot of opportunity would be cheered by the DWR? I would have truly thought once the DWR caught wind of the Court’s decision, they would have gotten an erection faster than Dick Cheney after reading Halliburton’s 2nd quarter earnings report. But strangely enough, there hasn’t been as much as a peep from the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. It is as if they wished this whole thing would have never happened. It is not like the public affairs office of the DWR hasn’t burped out other news releases since this decision was rendered. Since July 18, 2008, the DWR’s public affairs office has had no problem informing the public about earth shattering news such as a spring of 2009 goose hunt, an update on quagga mussels in Lake Foul (Powell) or that dove season has started.

The problem I have with the DWR’s intentional silence on this matter is simple. The Division had no problem when the shoe was on the other foot. The DWR sure felt it was their place to inform and educate public anglers about the ramifications and evils of “trespassing”. I can hear the DWR cheerleader/chamber of commerce types such as the Heppy’s point out that this is a private property matter and it is not the DWR’s place to get involved. That argument is pure horseshit. For the last few decades the DWR has been relentless in badgering the public to “Ask First”, “obtain permission”, “be respectful of private landowners”, etc, etc. In fact look on your combination license; in bold it states “this permit does not authorize you to trespass on private property”. Look at their website, their fishing reports, even current postings are downright misleading and negligent and clearly run contrary to the Utah Supreme Court’s decision. As an example; the most recent fishing report from the southern region erroneously states, when reporting on the East Fork of the Sevier, that “some private property is closed to trespass, so watch for signs” Or this classic fraudulent lie; “most of the remainder of the canyon (Kingston) is private and posted, so ask permission first”. That is direct from the DWR website and it is downright b.s. That is not the law. The Utah Supreme Court ruled that I can march my ass right up the East Fork of the Sevier River through so-called posted property if I want to recreate as long as I enter the stream at a public access point. The DWR knows damn good and well there are plenty of places in both Black Canyon on the E.F. of the Sevier and in Kingston Canyon where an angler can enter the stream via a public access point. The DWR owns land in both canyons that border this so-called “posted property”! All an angler has to do is enter at a DWR access point. The Division knows this. Why lie and be deceitful to the angling public on a taxpayer funded Utah state government website?

Most taxpaying citizens merely want government and its civil servants to be open and honest. Is the Division being open and honest about this whole stream access issue? Hell no! As public servants don’t they have some sort of fiduciary duty to at least mention this ruling now exists?? No one is expecting them to provide a legal interpretation or binding legal opinion on the matter. Just an acknowledgment that such a ruling now exists would suffice. As I mention above, they pretend (‘er wish) this decision never would have happened. And the reason is simple. It boils down to money. Most people in the know have realized long ago that the higher ups (read: Karpowitz) within the DWR are in bed spooning with private ranchers and landowners. Private land and large ranches means big game hunting, not fishing. And big game hunting is where the dollars are. It doesn’t take a mathematic genius to figure out that in the next 20 years if I continue to pay $30 annually for a fishing license, the DWR will only collect $600 in revenue. ONE premium big game elk permit garners the DWR $1,500.00. That one permit generates more cash than most anglers put into the Division’s coffers in their lifetime. Big game is big money and the DWR knows that. They do not like this equation: public fish + private land= public access. That is what the Utah Supreme Court determined. But it pisses private land owners off and the DWR doesn’t want to piss that group off. So they have to be careful not to appear excited or giddy about the July 18th decision. The DWR doesn’t want to ruin its partnership with large private landowners over a piddly decision that only impacts minimal revenue producing anglers.

The DWR knows the more people it keeps in the dark about this new ruling the less public resistance/public outcry there will be when some hayseed legislator (example: Mike Noel) tries to write legislation reversing the impact of the court ruling. I can see it now; in 2009 during the legislative session Noel will come up with something like the “Private Property Protection Act of 2009”. Typical uninformed sheep-like Utah voters will think it protects ranchers from having their cows stuck with arrows or something like that and they will sincerely think such legislation is a good thing. And from the DWR’s perspective the less the public knows, the better, which explains the prolonged silence. So in the end who does the DWR work for? Who pays their salaries? But more importantly who are they really serving by keeping hush hush about this?

Grizz
09-03-2008, 04:54 AM
fiduciary. Key.

peace

Nich
09-03-2008, 05:41 AM
Oh shit another novel. Maybe I'll give it a read or check out the carnage it causes tomorrow? Ehhh Mini will they ever stop taking the bait?

D.C.
09-03-2008, 05:44 AM
You can bet the 'Snapper will be a sippin'

Nich
09-03-2008, 05:46 AM
You can bet the 'Snapper will be a sippin'

I'm guessing more like a explosive top water take!

kingsonthefly
09-03-2008, 09:23 AM
all i want to know did it take you 47 days to write that?

Cary
09-03-2008, 02:35 PM
Mini, you are an f-ing genius.

Any fisihng near Hanksville?

Wyoming2utah
09-03-2008, 03:00 PM
Just out of curiosity....where's your love, Minivan (besides the bottle)? I mean...serisouly...are you such an unhappy individual that all you do is sit around and think of reasons to be mad?

Mr Sparkle
09-03-2008, 03:11 PM
Just out of curiosity....where's your love, Minivan (besides the bottle)? I mean...serisouly...are you such an unhappy individual that all you do is sit around and think of reasons to be mad?

Agreed. I suggest that he starts using his computer to look at copious amounts of porn.

1) With $4 gas, It's cheaper than driving to Elko.
2) You'll be too unmotivated to think this stuff up.
3) The end result is the same

I dunno, just a suggestion....

TS30
09-03-2008, 03:58 PM
And I thought I had issues with the government??????

TS30
09-03-2008, 04:00 PM
You can bet the 'Snapper will be a sippin'

hahahaah! At least come up with your own insults. That way I would at least consider you a man and not someone's little......

Flashabou
09-03-2008, 08:02 PM
Judas Priest!

Cary
09-03-2008, 08:07 PM
Led Zeppelin!

TS30
09-03-2008, 08:28 PM
More of a Metallica guy myself.....

Nich
09-03-2008, 08:39 PM
I've been listening to a ton of The Black Keys as of late.

Minivan
09-03-2008, 11:20 PM
In addition to being handsome and talented, I am also rather perceptive. If I am the only person on the face of the earth that thinks there is a problem with the DWR not commenting on this new ruling concerning stream access, well so be it. But please enough with the personal attacks. Frankly I do not appreciate getting called a drunk or that I ought to get in on some internet porn. If you disagree with the reasoning or logic in my posts, that is one thing. But the personal attacks are uncalled for.

PowerBaitHeppy
09-03-2008, 11:44 PM
... that if Ed (The mayor of Committeeville) Kent was euphoric enough to proclaim...

I can hear the DWR cheerleader/chamber of commerce types such as the Heppy’s point out ...

the personal attacks are uncalled for.



Hello, Kettle? You're black!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfcnoIkBdjc

Mr Sparkle
09-03-2008, 11:53 PM
In addition to being handsome and talented, I am also rather perceptive. If I am the only person on the face of the earth that thinks there is a problem with the DWR not commenting on this new ruling concerning stream access, well so be it. But please enough with the personal attacks. Frankly I do not appreciate getting called a drunk or that I ought to get in on some internet porn. If you disagree with the reasoning or logic in my posts, that is one thing. But the personal attacks are uncalled for.

Come on mini. Your whole post was a an attack against the DWR. What's the difference? At least everyone knows that my post wasn't serious...

Ever stopped to the that maybe, just MAYBE the reason that DWR hasn't commented on this is there were waiting to see how things shake out in the legislature?

Get over yourself.

GAWD, I can't believe I'm stupid enough to actually respond to you in a serious way...

TS30
09-03-2008, 11:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfcnoIkBdjc

ACDC rocks!

Minivan
09-04-2008, 12:35 AM
Mr. Sparkle you may be correct in your point about waiting to see what the legislature does. But as someone else pointed out I believe in the other post on this issue is certain sections of streams were once protected (by being off limits to the public) and now they are theoretically open to general fishing regulations. As an example I was a member of 1000 Peaks for a long time. During that time the entire stretch of the Upper Weber on the ranch was 100% catch and release fly fishing only. But now it is possible a public angler can access the ranch (at least the lower section) and use any legal method to fish and also harvest the legal limit of fish. So will the DWR take a hard look at the draft copy of the 2009 fishing proclamation and factor in this new ruling? Or will they let another year go by.

In a nutshell I see your point about waiting. The DWR doesn't want to commit resources to educate anglers on the new ruling when in 2009 the legislature completely reverses the Court's determination. Then you would have a mess from a law enforcement standpoint.

The point I was making in my original post is anglers need to be aware that it is the legislature they should fear, not the court system. This upcoming legislative session we need to keep a close eye on legislators such as Mike Noel to make sure they don't slip in some 11th hour legislation. Fishermen are not as organized as hunters. The DWR and the lawmakers know this. Fishermen do not have the lobby and juice that hunting organizations have in regarding to impacting legislative decisions. And as I point out in my first post, this is a ruling that really pertains only to anglers. And more specific it only benefits stream/river anglers.

The ruling has only a minimal impact on hunting. Therefore we cannot count on backing from SFW, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, etc. if legislation is advanced to overturn this. Fishermen need to realize this is a very good thing for anglers. We cannot allow our elected politicians to pander to a handful of irritated ranchers and landowners. We need to keep in mind the agriculture lobby has a very powerful voice in Utah politcs. We cannot underestimate that.

TS30
09-04-2008, 12:44 AM
Mr. Sparkle you may be correct in your point about waiting to see what the legislature does. But as someone else pointed out I believe in the other post on this issue is certain sections of streams were once protected (by being off limits to the public) and now they are theoretically open to general fishing regulations. As an example I was a member of 1000 Peaks for a long time. During that time the entire stretch of the Upper Weber on the ranch was 100% catch and release fly fishing only. But now it is possible a public angler can access the ranch (at least the lower section) and use any legal method to fish and also harvest the legal limit of fish. So will the DWR take a hard look at the draft copy of the 2009 fishing proclamation and factor in this new ruling? Or will they let another year go by.

In a nutshell I see your point about waiting. The DWR doesn't want to commit resources to educate anglers on the new ruling when in 2009 the legislature completely reverses the Court's determination. Then you would have a mess from a law enforcement standpoint.

The point I was making in my original post is anglers need to be aware that it is the legislature they should fear, not the court system. This upcoming legislative session we need to keep a close eye on legislators such as Mike Noel to make sure they don't slip in some 11th hour legislation. Fishermen are not as organized as hunters. The DWR and the lawmakers know this. Fishermen do not have the lobby and juice that hunting organizations have in regarding to impacting legislative decisions. And as I point out in my first post, this is a ruling that really pertains only to anglers. And more specific it only benefits stream/river anglers.

The ruling has only a minimal impact on hunting. Therefore we cannot count on backing from SFW, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, etc. if legislation is advanced to overturn this. Fishermen need to realize this is a very good thing for anglers. We cannot allow our elected politicians to pander to a handful of irritated ranchers and landowners. We need to keep in mind the agriculture lobby has a very powerful voice in Utah politcs. We cannot underestimate that.

If your first post would have said this instead of what it said, I think people would have taken you a lot more serious. I know that your soliloquies are generally to insight a fight, get people fired up, or just generally be mad at the world, but this last post is actually well thought out. Nicely done Mini. I agree, preach on brotha!

D.C.
09-04-2008, 06:52 AM
hahahaah! At least come up with your own insults. That way I would at least consider you a man and not someone's little......

You're too easy.
I didn't coin the nickname. A nickname is something that you earn. ("Call me T-bone")


I'm surprised that you considered me. That’s kind of weird.

"Well, some I consider my girlfriends, and some...I just consider"... -- John Bender



-----------------
Aside from the Heppy slamming, and the drama, MV brings up a good point. Why the concealment from the DWR? Is the ruling just too current to be commented on?

nate1031
09-04-2008, 07:45 AM
Ok, so just in case I don't want to try and focus long enough to read that thing, anyone want to hook a brother up with some cliffnotes?

Mr Sparkle
09-04-2008, 03:05 PM
Nice rebuttal mini (seriously).

Another thing the DWR could be waiting on is quite frequently a ruling in the courts like this spawns other rulings that clarify the language of the original ruling. I think that there are still significant issues with regards to that with the original UTSC ruling. For example, do anglers have to stay in the water itself, or they entitled to the mean high water mark. The original ruling did not say, and I'm sure it will be tested in court.

Just more of my $0.02.

Pat11
09-04-2008, 03:10 PM
I am claiming the first mini-milestone post.

Wyoming2utah
09-04-2008, 03:11 PM
I found this post on another site:

"The ruling by the court has some potentially broad ramifications, and many of those ramifications have been discussed here, on various other forums and in the media. The DWR does not get advance notice on how the courts rule, so we, along with everyone else, were left trying to determine exactly how this would affect our rules and how we would enforce it.

Since the ruling, we've had lots of internal discussions and consultations with the Attorney General's office on exactly what all of this will mean and how we should best enforce the court decision. In the mean time, we're just reminding people to use common sense, respect landowners' property and avoid unnecessary confrontations.

As for posting a notice about the court decision on the DWR Web site, perhaps we should have done that. The Division's Web site has largely been a place where we've published news and information from the DWR, but this decision came from the courts, not us. Recently, we have talked about broadening the focus of our Web site to also include general Utah wildlife news and information of interest to the general public — even when that news doesn't originate with us. The problem we're running into there, is just time and resources."
Cory Maylett
Communication Program Coordinator
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources

SnakesOnAPlane
09-04-2008, 04:12 PM
Just more of my $0.02.

With all of this 2 cents floating around over the years, I'd say we have enough to buy colbyatepaste a new Scott G and F/V Gulf Ventur a new fly box full of Green Drakes.

Just my 2 cents, though.

Mr Sparkle
09-04-2008, 04:33 PM
With all of this 2 cents floating around over the years, I'd say we have enough to buy colbyatepaste a new Scott G and F/V Gulf Ventur a new fly box full of Green Drakes.

Just my 2 cents, though.

You're not taking into account the devaluation of the $$ over the past 8 years.

TS30
09-04-2008, 04:40 PM
I found this post on another site:

"The ruling by the court has some potentially broad ramifications, and many of those ramifications have been discussed here, on various other forums and in the media. The DWR does not get advance notice on how the courts rule, so we, along with everyone else, were left trying to determine exactly how this would affect our rules and how we would enforce it.

Since the ruling, we've had lots of internal discussions and consultations with the Attorney General's office on exactly what all of this will mean and how we should best enforce the court decision. In the mean time, we're just reminding people to use common sense, respect landowners' property and avoid unnecessary confrontations.

As for posting a notice about the court decision on the DWR Web site, perhaps we should have done that. The Division's Web site has largely been a place where we've published news and information from the DWR, but this decision came from the courts, not us. Recently, we have talked about broadening the focus of our Web site to also include general Utah wildlife news and information of interest to the general public — even when that news doesn't originate with us. The problem we're running into there, is just time and resources."
Cory Maylett
Communication Program Coordinator
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources

I think that is a fair answer personally.

PowerBaitHeppy
09-04-2008, 05:32 PM
I think that is a fair answer personally.


But, it came from the DWR, so how can we possibly believe it or take is seriously? (not pointed towards you TS).

Rod Hog
09-04-2008, 05:39 PM
You're not taking into account the devaluation of the $$ over the past 8 years.

Does that mean your 2 cents ain't worth shit?

TS30
09-04-2008, 05:43 PM
But, it came from the DWR, so how can we possibly believe it or take is seriously? (not pointed towards you TS).

Well, it could be directed toward me and I'd deserve it! I really had that one coming anyway.... ;)

cheech
09-04-2008, 05:47 PM
Does that mean your 2 cents ain't worth shit?

Sh$# is a great fertilizer, and may be worth more than you think.

Rod Hog
09-04-2008, 05:49 PM
Sh$# is a great fertilizer, and may be worth more than you think.

Ah, the new and improved, kinder and gentler Cheech. I miss the old Cheech - how long do we have to wait?

cheech
09-04-2008, 05:55 PM
Ah, the new and improved, kinder and gentler Cheech. I miss the old Cheech - how long do we have to wait?

I'M #1 SUCKAS!!!

I have to be kinder and gentler.

SnakesOnAPlane
09-04-2008, 06:03 PM
I'M #1 SUCKAS!!!

I have to be kinder and gentler.

Now that you are #1, can't you change your name to Bassin' Beeotch or something groovy like that?
I believe congrats are in order.

Mr Sparkle
09-04-2008, 06:46 PM
I'M #1 SUCKAS!!!

All glory is fleeting....

F/V Gulf Ventur
09-04-2008, 07:03 PM
Mini - It has always been my perception that you are a well informed individual. So, my question to you is, where does the non-political guy go to get information about both sides of the fence?