Caddis Flies in April

[fulano]

Anybody else notice a decent number of caddis flying around the middle provo recently. I was near the water treatment plant on Saturday. There was no "hatch" when I was there, but there were about 3 sizes of Caddis fluttering around, some laying eggs, etc. Some of them were darker, about size 18, which is what I think of as Mothers day caddis. The others were larger and lighter in color, much like the species that we see later in the summer.

Is it safe to assume all of these were of the species commonly called Mothers Day caddis, but just different sizes, etc. Any other spring time caddis of note on the middle provo?

[jim m.]

I saw quite a few caddis yesterday on the middle. They looked to me to be the the same caddis that we normally see in numbers in the beginning of May. Fish were up on them too. My caddis box (sitting at home) was of little use to me.

This spring is an odd one. Ive never fished ant patterns this early and had them out-fish baetis patterns. That's what happened yesterday anyway.

[Taxon]

Brachycentrus occidentalis, which are variously called Mother’s Day Caddis or American Grannom or just Grannom, are likely responsible for both of the smaller sizes of dark caddisflies you observed, as the females are about hook size #16, and the males are one hook size smaller.

The larger and lighter colored caddisflies most likely to be in evidence in the mid-April, particularly if somewhat small in number, would be Hydropsyche or Ceratopsyche, which are variously called Spotted Sedge or Cinnamon Caddis.

Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com (http://www.FlyfishingEntomology.com)

[fulano]

So what color are the larvae and pupa of these guys? Is granom the one that builds the case with the square cross setion? Green body for the pupa as well?

Just curious if during non-hatch times the fish might be looking for these on the bottom. I assume so.

[FishOn!]

do these early season caddis come off at the usual times (i.e. dusk)?

[SnakesOnAPlane]

I just read an old article by Mike Lawson, who let's just say knows his stuff when it comes to fly fishing. He said that if he had to fish one fly for the rest of his life, it would be a black beetle.

I think you should expect to outfish baetis anyday when you use terrestrials.
In a lot of places in Utah, crickets fish all year long.

[Tyson]

The fabled black ant once saved me during an April BWO hatch on the lower. I had the ant patterns left over from a summer when there were thick swarms of flying ants on the Provo near home. My para adams was getting ignored. When I trailed the black ant though, it immediately started taking hits.

But of course the fish are devouring baetis. Just because we think we are "fishing baetis" doesn't mean we are if the fish aren't in agreement. We need better patterns and/or presentation or something.

[cheech]

The fabled black ant once saved me during an April BWO hatch on the lower. I had the ant patterns left over from a summer when there were thick swarms of flying ants on the Provo near home. My para adams was getting ignored. When I trailed the black ant though, it immediately started taking hits.

But of course the fish are devouring baetis. Just because we think we are "fishing baetis" doesn't mean we are if the fish aren't in agreement. We need better patterns and/or presentation or something.

so what COLOR was the ant? Surely they didn't eat a black ant when they should be eating olive thingies with slate grey sails.

Fish are stupid.

[Tyson]

so what COLOR was the ant? Surely they didn't eat a black ant when they should be eating olive thingies with slate grey sails.

Fish are stupid.
Fish are stupid but they are effecient at processing information however simple it may be. Why else do so many baetis patterns fail if it is such a large part of their diet? Its hard to tie a black ant that fails.

As far as caddis, I have no answer in my fly box for grannom pupa but the cased grannom larva has taken some good fish for me.

[jim m.]

Why else do so many baetis patterns fail if it is such a large part of their diet?

#1 reason - bad presentation

Fly fishing isn't rocket science. Lots of cinnamon colored ants on the shore in the afternoon sun means ants on the water.

[Landon]

The fabled black ant once saved me during an April BWO hatch on the lower. I had the ant patterns left over from a summer when there were thick swarms of flying ants on the Provo near home. My para adams was getting ignored. When I trailed the black ant though, it immediately started taking hits.

But of course the fish are devouring baetis. Just because we think we are "fishing baetis" doesn't mean we are if the fish aren't in agreement. We need better patterns and/or presentation or something.

My guess would be the fish were on midges or small black stoneflies. Hense why the black ant worked.

[Tyson]

#1 reason - bad presentation

Fly fishing isn't rocket science. Lots of cinnamon colored ants on the shore in the afternoon sun means ants on the water.
So presentation dramatically improves with the attaching of a terrestrial to the line?

[Curtis Fry]

So presentation dramatically improves with the attaching of a terrestrial to the line?

Hold on there Tex....how does this work with the 2 oz of lead you chuck and the big indicator??

[Tyson]

Hold on there Tex....how does this work with the 2 oz of lead you chuck and the big indicator??
What? I never use more than 1/5 ounce.
Curtis and Cheech,
Just because I do a little deep water headhunting I'm not allowed to discuss fly fishing? I double hauled weighted streamers with a floating line for a half hour on Saturday. Seriously. come on guys.

[jim m.]

So presentation dramatically improves with the attaching of a terrestrial to the line?

This question makes no sense.

My point is, you can fish a productive pattern all day and not catch fish if you can't put it in front of them correctly.

If forced to choose - I'll take a drag free drift over the "perfect pattern" any day of the week.

[campfire]

Hold on there Tex....how does this work with the 2 oz of lead you chuck and the big indicator??

"I said I didn't have much use for them. I didn't say I didn't know how to use one." Mathew Quiggly

[Tyson]

This question makes no sense.

My point is, you can fish a productive pattern all day and not catch fish if you can't put it in front of them correctly.

If forced to choose - I'll take a drag free drift over the "perfect pattern" any day of the week.
I see what you are saying. I agree presentation is critical.

[Taxon]

So what color are the larvae and pupa of these guys?
Larva: cream to green
Pupa: green with dark brown marks on back and dark brown wing pads
Is granom the one that builds the case with the square cross setion?
Yes.
Green body for the pupa as well?
Yes, see above.
Just curious if during non-hatch times the fish might be looking for these on the bottom.
Yes. The larvae attach their cases to the upper halves of rocks that are exposed to the currents. When the loose their hold, and are found drifting in the current, they are intercepted by trout and eaten case and all.

[cheech]

Tyson,

ease up on the reigns a bit. You are going to kill that horse.

Just some fun natured ribbing. We are all full of crap anyway.

Fish are still stupid.

[Tyson]

Tyson,

ease up on the reigns a bit. You are going to kill that horse.

Just some fun natured ribbing. We are all full of crap anyway.

Fish are still stupid.
Right on. Somewhere in all this crap hopefully someone will find a nugget of...crap. Lol.

Taxon, thanks for the useful info.

[FishOn!]

Do the case building caddis take their cases with them before a hatch, or do they leave them behind on the rocks? Through town I used to fish a cased caddis pattern and do very well. I have had some success up in the canyon too with the same pattern. I also have had some success using a Chamois caddis pattern up in the canyon which represents a caddis without the case. This is why I have my question...is the chamois pattern represent a case builder that has ditched his case before a hatch or does it represent a different species altogether?...I really want to get LaFontaine's book Caddis Flies or whatever its called.

[Tyson]

Do the case building caddis take their cases with them before a hatch, or do they leave them behind on the rocks? Through town I used to fish a cased caddis pattern and do very well. I have had some success up in the canyon too with the same pattern. I also have had some success using a Chamois caddis pattern up in the canyon which represents a caddis without the case. This is why I have my question...is the chamois pattern represent a case builder that has ditched his case before a hatch or does it represent a different species altogether?...I really want to get LaFontaine's book Caddis Flies or whatever its called.
Here are some good pics of grannom
http://users.myexcel.com/dolfnlvr/Grannom/grannom.html
The pupas do leave the case to swim to the surface to become adults. A chamois caddis looks like a larva that has left its case. The pupa has prominent wingpads and collects bubbles under their skin as they ascend.

[FishOn!]

The pupas do leave the case to swim to the surface to become adults.

Yes, I know this, sorry if I was not clear...my question is about before the hatch actually starts. I was wondering if before the hatch the caddis are drifting along the river bottom inside their cases, or if they leave them on the rock they were once attached to and drift along the bottom without their cases. In other words, at what point do they leave their case? They don't go from the rock straight to the surface do they? Don't they drift along the bottom for awhile before the actual hatch starts then they shoot for the surface? Thanks for everyone's info

[Taxon]

Yes, I know this, sorry if I was not clear...my question is about before the hatch actually starts. I was wondering if before the hatch the caddis are drifting along the river bottom inside their cases, or if they leave them on the rock they were once attached to and drift along the bottom without their cases. In other words, at what point do they leave their case? They don't go from the rock straight to the surface do they? Don't they drift along the bottom for awhile before the actual hatch starts then they shoot for the surface? Thanks for everyone's info

FishOn-

Before the hatch begins, the Brachycentrus pupa chews open the front end of the case, which its larval form had sealed for purpose of pupuation, exits and swims directly toward the surface, drifting in the surface film while extricating itself from it pupal shuck, etc. So the answer is no, under normal circumstances, the pupa doesn't drift along the bottom.

[Grizz]

So the answer is no, under normal circumstances, the pupa doesn't drift along the bottom.

I heard that! but, what if & when they do? I've always done well on cased Caddis patterns, all year long. So, under diverse circumstances, I'd say Yes! Most often a shell sheltering Caddis does & will free drift in a rivers flow, often times leaving the angler one true choice; eat & live or fall & die.

peace

[jonescort]

With all this talk of caddis I was wondering what patterns are good for fishing when you see the caddis. Is there a pattern that works better than others this time of year or is an elk hair caddis in a couple of colors going to cover it? I am just trying to find an easy way to tie a good caddis that is quick and works well. What size should I use for the caddis that are coming off? Sorry for stealing the thread.

[Grizz]

Young Cort,

Andy Kim once told me that if the fush are loose off the bottom, feeding mid depth, hovering like the best built vacuum, an artistic approach would be in yours & any angler’s best interest. It’s OK to be over-zealous, most young fisherman are. This brand new world of trout will teach you more than you’ll ever learn from a College Professor.

peace

[fulano]

Young Cort,

Andy Kim once told me that if the fush are loose off the bottom, feeding mid depth, hovering like the best built vacuum, an artistic approach would be in yours & any angler’s best interest. It’s OK to be over-zealous, most young fisherman are. This brand new world of trout will teach you more than you’ll ever learn from a College Professor.

peace

Wise words from a wise ..... ass! :)

Cort -I am just scratching the surface myself on Caddis so others may be able to be more helpful. Like mayflies, when the actual caddis hatch is occuring, fish will more often take a pupa/emerger pattern, which is kind akin to a mayfly emerger pattern (like a trailing shuck, etc). Some that have worked for me are the X-caddis and Iris caddis to fish on the surface. Another that works either below the surface either deep or shallow is the Fox Poopah. I think you can google all three of these for pattern information.

EHC is a good pattern too, but I use it more for a searching pattern when there is no hatch, especially when I want to bounce the fly around in pocket water like an egg laying caddis.

[Tyson]

If you read Gary's book Caddisflies he will say the pupa drift on the bottom. Or more specifically, they are likely to pause and drift on the bottom and at the surface, not so much in between. That is why he has a fly called the deep sparkle pupa. I have not scubadived to verify but that's what he says.

[chris]

Who is Gary??

Caddis produce fish in any column 'cept on top.

[ByteMe]

Apperantly Tyson is on a first name basis with the late Mr. LaFontaine.

[campfire]

I have done well durring the early caddis hatch fishing a plane old gold ribbed haers ear fished like a dry fly but without floatant so it drifts just under the surface film. After seeing the pics I understand why.

[FishOn!]

As far as the fishing part goes I actually have a lot of success using an Elk Hair Caddis on top, but that is if the hatch is actually going (fish rising). But yes, I agree that you will catch more if you trail an emerger fished under the surface behind a dry. I love caddis hatches because you can just cast out and not worry about a drag free drift the whole time...you can let it swing or skate and can catch fish...I usually do really well on the swing at the end of my drift, letting the emerger look like its shooting toward the surface. Many times Ive gone to cast upstream and I realize I have a fish on. Another thing I like doing sometimes is skating the fly upstream then let it drift down then skate it upstream again...if I see a fish rising downstream of me I'll usually try this. I love how hard the fish smack caddis.

[Utah DaveII]

One of the reasons it's nice to have an idea of what is hatching is so you can fish it them same. We tend to really generalize caddis hathces. The nice thing about Brachycentrus hatches is that they tend to float on the water for some time. Kind of mayfly style. This behavior allows for some better dry fly fishing during the hatches.

Taxon, the most common brachycentrus caddis on the Middle Provo is B. Echo. B. Echo kind of hangs out in most Utah waters and is slightly smaller than most of the b. caddis. It's an interesting caddis. On freestone streams without a dam it seems to come of at the typical time of the mother's day caddis. On most Utah tailwaters it is usually the first hatch off after runoff. On my favorite Utah stream I have seen blanket hatches of this bug come off anywhere between May 27 and June 12. IT is the best fishing of the year.

The following link has reports on the MP insects. It tlaks a little bit about B. Echo and B americanus. You might find it interesting.

http://www.mitigationcommission.gov/prrp/prrp_fishwild.html

[fulano]

One of the reasons it's nice to have an idea of what is hatching is so you can fish it them same. We tend to really generalize caddis hathces. The nice thing about Brachycentrus hatches is that they tend to float on the water for some time. Kind of mayfly style. This behavior allows for some better dry fly fishing during the hatches.

Taxon, the most common brachycentrus caddis on the Middle Provo is B. Echo. B. Echo kind of hangs out in most Utah waters and is slightly smaller than most of the b. caddis. It's an interesting caddis. On freestone streams without a dam it seems to come of at the typical time of the mother's day caddis. On most Utah tailwaters it is usually the first hatch off after runoff. On my favorite Utah stream I have seen blanket hatches of this bug come off anywhere between May 27 and June 12. IT is the best fishing of the year.

The following link has reports on the MP insects. It tlaks a little bit about B. Echo and B americanus. You might find it interesting.

http://www.mitigationcommission.gov/prrp/prrp_fishwild.html

That's why we call him the "Caddis Pimp". I AM going to fish a caddis hatch with you and Cheech this summer UD.

[Taxon]

I heard that! but, what if & when they do? I've always done well on cased Caddis patterns, all year long. So, under diverse circumstances, I'd say Yes! Most often a shell sheltering Caddis does & will free drift in a rivers flow, often times leaving the angler one true choice; eat & live or fall & die.

peace
Grizz-

I was speaking specifically about Brachycentrus, not about cased caddisflies in general.

[cheech]

That's why we call him the "Caddis Pimp". I AM going to fish a caddis hatch with you and Cheech this summer UD.

All I know about caddis I learned from Dave.

[Utah DaveII]

That's funny! Like we ahve ever fished a caddis hatch together. Although I did float a pattern idea or two to you.

[Grizz]

Grizz-

I was speaking specifically about Brachycentrus, not about cased caddisflies in general.

Thanks for clarifying that. I wasn't by any means questioning your vast knowledge of the many different Caddis or their life cycles. Your contributions are indispensable THX

peace

[Taxon]

Taxon, the most common brachycentrus caddis on the Middle Provo is B. Echo. B. Echo kind of hangs out in most Utah waters and is slightly smaller than most of the b. caddis. It's an interesting caddis. On freestone streams without a dam it seems to come of at the typical time of the mother's day caddis. On most Utah tailwaters it is usually the first hatch off after runoff. On my favorite Utah stream I have seen blanket hatches of this bug come off anywhere between May 27 and June 12. IT is the best fishing of the year.

The following link has reports on the MP insects. It tlaks a little bit about B. Echo and B americanus. You might find it interesting.

http://www.mitigationcommission.gov/prrp/prrp_fishwild.html
Dave-

Thank you for sharing the report. You are right. I found it most interesting.

[fulano]

Taxon,
You're input on entomology is great. Please continue to jump into these discussions.

I also know, that next time my teenagers call me a "Bug-nerd" that everything is relative and there are nerdier bug nerds than myself out there !!!

j/k

[Taxon]

fulano-

Nerdy, who me? How could one possibly think such a thing! I simply have a major obsession.

Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com (http://www.FlyfishingEntomology.com)

[dingding]

Several years ago, around this time o' year I was fishing a popular local venue. I was tossing Goddard pattern caddis, dry. Harvest was being highly encouraged. Plus I was with my wife and sis-in-law, who were lunching and walking a nearby trail. They always pressure me to keep one, and act as if i've failed, or caught none, if I don't.

So, I harvest this nice 16" brown. I clean it, expecting to see adult caddis, or ice-cream-cone cases, or even some green-or tan larvae. No dice!!!

This trout was chock fulla rock-rollers. Cases and all. I don't know the scientific name, but they're the caddis that excrete a goo and roll around in tiny gravel and sediment on the bottom. They're pretty chunky little dudes! Like size 12 or 14.

As you'd imagine, being encased in rocks, they don't hang around in the mid depths, or surface. Fish 'em slow on the bottom. Get a book and figure out how to tie 'em. One hint is to take a little container and collect sandy sediment from the streams where you plan to use them. A little glue and a hook or two, plus a couple other ingredients, and you're set.

Dangit, I just gave up my 2 favorite caddis secrets.