Real Seal: Overrated??

[Curtis Fry]

In talking to some UOTF fellers at lunch, I started to wonder how much the real seal fur dubbing makes a difference and how much is just hype.

If you've fished it side-by-side against other patterns in the same color but with different material, has it made a difference?

Is it just overrated?

[Tyson]

Who even possesses real seal? I thought it was illegal to shoot seals these days. But if anyone has some cough it up I need to try it out so I can see for myself.

[Curtis Fry]

I've got quite a load of it in a variety of colors and use it in a LOT of my flies.

[Tyson]

I've got quite a load of it in a variety of colors and use it in a LOT of my flies.
Curtis, you must have connections. Are there any retailers that carry it?

[Curtis Fry]

I bought mine from Greg Ware before Lone Peak closed. He got it from a guy in Canada who, we later realized, wasn't authorized to sell in the US. There are places around you can get it legally, but I'm not sure where since I have no need to buy more now.

[Tyson]

So what do you think Curtis? Is it better? I love tying with Angora Goat and SimiSeal as well. It has reignited my imagination of what is possible, particularly with streamers. I don't think I've ever seen a fly tied with the real stuff.

[Curtis Fry]

To be honest, for a while I was absolutely convinced seal was the real deal. Now I'm just doing a reality check cuz the more I think about it, the less I logically think it makes that big a difference. Nothing empirical, just the gears (or gear) turning in my head.

[Tyson]

Maybe the fish don't care that its authentic seal, but maybe knowing that you use the real stuff was a psychological edge, because you thought it WAS going to make a difference and you fished with more passion?

[GotFish?]

Guys, I've got two different sealskin coats ready to slice up & dye. One is a very dark brown, the other is a spotted. Anyone want some to play with I'll start cutting these babies up. Let me know.

[cardiac]

Dennis Brakke used to sell it. I know he'll swear by it. I've used seal buggers (real deal not the Rickards fake seal) I don't know if it's better'n the Arizona simi seal or Cheech's and Nick's llama. I like bunnie... and maryboo. Lifelike and that's what you's want.

[dan moulton]

Maybe it smells better Curtis

[stripper]

I belive it breathes and swims better than angora or other seal subs. The key is in the mixing but thats just my 2 cents.

[JayMorr]

Stripper you still got your hook up? Let me know.

[Marty]

I have been collecting seal for over 20 years now. I have over 50 different colors and a lot of white. I still have bags I bought at Anglers Inn in the early 80s. (the stuff with the saw dust) I have found there is nothing like it. There are a lot of imitations but none come close. Real seal has a translucency that can’t be match by anything man made. Dose it make a difference, probably not. It’s just a real cool old school material. I do not use it much for trout any more but all of my steelhead and Atlantic salmon flies are dressed with the real deal.

[skighhigh]

Marty,

Now that I am into the steelhead thing do you have any of that you might be willing to part with?

Bobby

[flip]

Who even possesses real seal? I thought it was illegal to shoot seals these days. But if anyone has some cough it up I need to try it out so I can see for myself.
I think It is the underfur that is naturally shed that has always been used and not the hair and all. The save the world bunch got it all outlawed but the flytying stuff is all over the rocks in the seal areas up north... the eskamos used to make a little money picking it up and mailing it to a processing company.. It pops up on e-bay now and then....flip

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Pictures -- let's see some picts of some seal buggers.

Personally, I don't know that the fish really care weather it's real, or synthetic -- but if someone want's to tie up some seal and synthetic buggers for me, I'll give them both a try and give you my results!!

[Utah DaveII]

This is a great topic.

Last night after reading this post I went down and looked at differnet dubbings. Some that are real seal, some that are Mohair, some simi seal and Euro-seal and tried to look at them.

I think the lesseon with seal is that it is spikey and transluscent. If you are looking for a seal replacement those are what one needs to look for. Artic animals like seals and Polar bears tend to have hollow hair for insulation. This hollow hair coupled with the white tends to create transucency.

Last night I looked at the following matierials.

1) Seal
2) Angora goat
3) Mohair (come to find out another name for angora goat)
4) Simi Seal
5) Seal Sub (jay Fair, I also think this is Angora Goat)
6) Euro-seal (one website said this ahd a small bit of mohair in it)
7) a-box blood leech and CBS dubbing.
8) Linear Lama

In lighter colors the seal lights up and becomes vibrant when backlight. Olives, greens, light browns and reds all just light right up.

In blacks all the dubbings performed poorly as far as transucency. This was highlighted the most by my seal bugger mix. The red was awesome when backlit, the black did not light up at all.

Simi Seal is incredibly variable with different mixes. Some mixes light up really good others have almost no translucency.
the A-box angora that was NOT spectrumized seemed have the poorest transucency of all the groups. Thant being said my a-box dubbing that is one color is all dark too.

The a-box CBS leech and blood leach are the most amazing dubbing mixes that I have ever seen. The two colors are basically a brown and a burgandy, but rather than just dyed on color they are a mix of many colors. When backlighted the individual colors jump out. I don't know if that stuff is seal or angora or both, but it is ablsolutely amazing. I was a big fan already, but became and even bigger fan last night.

The Euro-seal also looked really good too. I tried to figure out what this stuff is made of and all I can find is that it has some mohair in it and the rest is natural. All I can say is this stuff looked the second best next to the a-box spectrumized mixes. If it is Angora whoever colors this stuff must really do a good job because it glows almost as well as the real seal when backlit. If it's a different material I want lot's more!!!!

The colors on the llama were good, but the diameter appears to be smaller and therefore the dubbing packs tighter. The individual fibers were translucent, but the dubbing as a whole seemed to lose it's transucency faster in a mass. I figure this is because the fibers are tighter.

Does translucency make a difference to fish? Who knows but it makes a difference to me. I know when I see pictures of aquatic insects when the are backlighted they are always transluscent.

[Lonnie]

Last night after reading this post I went down and looked at differnet dubbings.....

....Last night I looked at the following matierials.

1) Seal
2) Angora goat
3) Mohair (come to find out another name for angora goat)
4) Simi Seal
5) Seal Sub (jay Fair, I also think this is Angora Goat)
6) Euro-seal (one website said this ahd a small bit of mohair in it)
7) a-box blood leech and CBS dubbing.
8) Linear Lama


Dude, when is your wife due again?

L

[spotter]

Dude, when is your wife due again?

L

Who's got time for nooky when creating such stellar posts! That was a valuable post UT Dave. Thanks. (p.s. any testing done on Jeff Brooks spectrumized mix?)

[UtahFlyGuy]

(p.s. any testing done on Jeff Brooks spectrumized mix?)

I dont know about Dave but I've been mixing a bunch of his recipes and I've tied a few with the mixes that I have created. I'm giving them a trial run on Sunday at the Berry. I'll report back on what I come across.

Here is the link to Jeff's results, http://www.utahonthefly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62

Pat

[cheech]

Who's got time for nooky when creating such stellar posts! That was a valuable post UT Dave. Thanks. (p.s. any testing done on Jeff Brooks spectrumized mix?)


I agree. Thanks Dave.

Our conversation yesterday is what got the ball rolling. Now I just need to talk SealHog into selling me some stuff.

[Utah DaveII]

but I did not look at it last night in comparison to the other dubbings. I was more looking at how the dubbing reacted when backlit.

Jeff Brooks spectrumized? when they did the presentation down at Lone peak a few years ago ROD HOG was good enough to get me the instructions and the stuff needed. You mix one batch and there is a lot of dubbing. I have yet to catch a fish on the spectrumized damsel depsite a medium amount of effort. That being said I ahve not fished it in the right situations either and my first versions of th efly were far tooo bulky. I have also made some changes to the pattern and been trying that. I have, on the other hand, created a small beadhead softhackle with that dubbing that I have had some success on. I also have some AP emergers tied up with it and I will see how they do next spring.

[Rod Hog]

Now I just need to talk SealHog into selling me some stuff.

Cheech, if I happen to run into SealHog, what colors are you looking for?

[Rod Hog]

http://www.fishermensfeathers.com/usa/seals.htm

[Fred]

In talking to some UOTF fellers at lunch, I started to wonder how much the real seal fur dubbing makes a difference and how much is just hype.

If you've fished it side-by-side against other patterns in the same color but with different material, has it made a difference?

Is it just overrated?

I have and found that the seal seemed to work better and have more durability, but it could just be mental. I would like to get some more seal dubbing, but don't even have time to tie with the stuff I have. So, that would be pointless.

Interesting responses so far.

But, since you asked, if anything is overrated it is the "spectrumized" dubbing. Mohair yarn is "spectrumized".

Spectrumized is just another word for mixing up a bunch of colors. The original idea is not Jeff Brooks' but has been around a long time. Ed Kent was the first to introduce Jeff Brooks to the concept. The "reflecto" leech is another example.

"Spectrumized" is just another thing to hook fisherman--not necessarily fish.

[cheech]

I think Spectrumized is a great term that goes far beyond just mixed colors. You have to realize that some colors disappear in certain light etc. I'm no expert in this, I have done far better with "spectrumized" types of dubbings.

I don't think Jeff was in any way trying to take all of the credit for "creating" it, but I think he deserves a lot of credit for opening people's eyes to it. I'm sure Ed Kent learned it from someone else too.

Fred, Are you still stuck on the 100 fish thing? It's possible;)

[Doug S.]

Fred, Are you still stuck on the 100 fish thing? It's possible;)

Oh you think so do ya ??? :) (me too)

[cheech]

Cheech, if I happen to run into SealHog, what colors are you looking for?


Just black.

[cheech]

http://www.fishermensfeathers.com/usa/seals.htm
HOLY SHIZ, $18 for shipping.

I'll just stick with my blends

[Fred]

Fred, Are you still stuck on the 100 fish thing? It's possible;)

Not sure why you keep bringing it up, but it seems that you always hear about 100 fish days from people that are trying to sell product.

Oh well, to each his own. I have no interest in 100 fish days. Not sure what point you are trying to prove by going after that many fish.

Personally, not one of my goals.

But, you guys have fun up at Matties. I'm sure it's a hoot.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

cheech -- would I be able to catch 100 fish in a day with some of your seal buggers? If so, I'd like to try. Feel free to send me some seal buggers, and I'll post a report about my 100 fish day!

[cheech]

Seal... I don't even have any. I bet if I did, I could catch 1000 fish in a day.

Fred, the only reason I brought up the 100 fish days, is because you are the only one who still brings up Jeff with an aire of skepticism. That's all. I don't toot any horns about 100 fish days, I'm just saying that it's not very hard, and at some places, you don't have to set it as a goal, or even try very hard.

Doug, 100 fish day possible??

[Fred]

I don't toot any horns about 100 fish days, I'm just saying that it's not very hard, and at some places, you don't have to set it as a goal, or even try very hard.

Doug, 100 fish day possible??

Well, after five or so years of talking about it, I'm glad you are finally getting close to this "easy" goal.

How many did you get last time, 75? Well, you are 75% there.

[cheech]

I caught 237 fish before I stopped counting at Pelican. I've topped 100 several times in the Uintas and at Pelican.


Yes, I'm friggin awesome. I know it all, I invented everything, and I could even teach Ezlehappy how to get a chick.

[Utah DaveII]

I agree with cheech that spectrumized dubbings primary purpose is to be visable in different light conditions and different water conditions. for instance some water has a blue phase and some has a green phase. Different colors will show up at different times of the day and different depths. Plus I like flies with some sparkle in them when the water has that green tinti with algae.

Mixing dubbings is turning into my favorite non-flyfishing part of the hobby.

[Curtis Fry]

That's why I'm making a special mix using a cement mixer that uses every friggin' dubbing known to man. It will cover all colors for all depths.

Last night I mixed up a few custom batches myself. It's fun. Dave, how do you mix yours? I use the dumb coffee grinder which I'm not liking much -- especially when using longer fibers.

[Utah DaveII]

I ahve also just been using a coffee grinder.

When I get around to mixing some of the CBS blood long fibre I'm going to have to do it a diffferent way because I am scared the blade is going to chop my long fibers up.

[Fred]

I agree with cheech that spectrumized dubbings primary purpose is to be visable in different light conditions and different water conditions. for instance some water has a blue phase and some has a green phase. Different colors will show up at different times of the day and different depths. Plus I like flies with some sparkle in them when the water has that green tinti with algae.

Mixing dubbings is turning into my favorite non-flyfishing part of the hobby.

How do you know when to use what? You mix up too many and you have five million expirements and no idea which ones to use, when or why. Isn't it better to have fewer proven flies. I guess expirementing is part of the fun, but what a time commitment.

[stripper]

If anyone wants a good source to buy the seal, send me a email and I will pass it on. Also I have been mixing my material in a mason jar 3/4 full of warm water and drop in the materials you want to mix and shake for a minute or so, throw it in a small metal strainer to drain the water and throw it on a paper towel to dry overnight. Also the going price for a gram of seal is about 2.35 and a gram goes a long way.

[«°Ñøvã°»]

Can anyone reccomend a nice mix ratio. I have a bunch of freakin dubbing that i havent even broke into yet. Ive had this stuff for a couple years and havent used very much. Is that arizona simi seal any good? I also have some 100% seal dubbing in various colors if anyone wants a sample to try out. I usually use it mixed for my sows. A little pinch goes a long long way. Seems to work perty good.

[JayMorr]

Strippers technique for mixing works very well. I switched over to this when he first mentioned it some time ago and I think it works much better than the coffee grinder. Try it if you have not already done so.