Thoughts on ribbing

[nightfish]

Tradition says that ribbing on flies (PT for example) should be counter-wrapped to aid in reinforcing fragile fibers. I always forget to do this, but I have never noticed any wear from my oversight. But it seems to me that ribbing in the same direction as the fibers would be just as affective, since it is done in wider spaced turns that the feather fibers, and would therefore still trap or protect them. Any thoughts? How do you do it?

[chanceb]

The only thing I've noticed, and it's slight, is that when you counter wrap(on most materials) you can see the wire ribbing better. If you rap the same direction it has a better chance of sinking into the material and blending in. Just what I've noticed, I could be crazy???
I haven't noticed any difference with durabilty.

[Mike]

Counter wrapping is good for durability because it requires that your fly "unravel" in 2 directions before falling apart completely. Also, individual fibers of fragile stuff (like pheasant fiber) under the wire have a much harder time unwinding more than 1 counter wrap of the wire if they start falling apart. Back in the nymphing days I could definitely tell the difference in durability, particularly on PT's. The counter wrap of wire over hackle on stimulators is another good example of a fly where I think it makes a big difference in durability.

[Drake]

I usually loose a fly before I notice the any durability issues. I do agree with chanceb that the ribbing does sometime slip down between the PT fibers.

[Mason]

Back in the nymphing days
Mike, do you not throw nymphs?

[Mike]

Not for quite a while really. I just don't enjoy it very much compared to other techniques. In fact I don't think I've tied or purchased a nymph pattern in at least 2 years. I'd much rather catch a fish on top, on the swing or using a streamer. I'll try all of those things before tying on a nymph. That usually means I'll be catching far less fish than people who are nymphing on any given day, but that doesn't bother me as the only number I tend to care about these days is zero. I still don't like getting skunked.

If my only chance for catching fish on a fly involved nymphing, I'd still tie one on. I don't despise nymphing, I'm just more into other methods of catching fish. There's definitely nothing like casting a dry or having a fish blow up on your streamer or soft hackle!

[Jason]

Actually, back in the day Mike was the king of nymphing and it would take a big hatch for him to switch over. lol. Like most of us, there comes a time when you need a little more challenge. Dry flies all year round at any given time can definitely be a challenge. Making multiple casts to big rising trout and finaling "fooling" him brings a unique satisfaction that you can't get from nymphing. Same goes for swinging soft hackles and streamers. Good times.

As for ribbing, I don't usually counter wrap unless I'm ribbing over a delicate material that tends to get fraid or chewed up pretty easy. Pheasant tails is one that comes to mind. Sometimes it just comes down to a matter of preference. Nick, what are you tying?

[nightfish]

Jason, I'm tying a cripple/stillborn for Lonnie's swap, so you'll see it then. But you won't see a counter-wrap, or even a same-direction rib, and it's with a very delicate material. I'll be interested to hear durability reports.

But like I said, I don't usually counter-wrap. My PT's are usually tied with biot bodies, so I just wrap the wire between the veins. And on my stimulators, I don't rib with anything (haven't had a durability problem so far). When I do counter-wrap, it's on a dubbed body, like a hare's ear. Like Mike the Nymph King said, it helps prevent the ribbing stand out better.

[Larry S.]

Nick-

My thoughts, for what they are worth, are that there was a reason for the counter wrap and it was for durability not only for fragile fibers such as PT but for hackles as well. Consider the EHC as tied by Troth. He ties the ribbing on the rear and the hackle ahead of the body and winds it back and then the ribbing forward through the hackle. It is counter wrapped although a round about way of doing it. I think Bruce did the same thing last week up here on one of his patterns. I think you would want it that way on your big streamers.

You would'nt get the same effect(durability) on a palmered hackle if you ribbed it the same direction. In fact it would have to go between the hackle wraps which would serve no purpose other than flash that I can see.

As far as PT nymphs and such, I was looking in one of Randall Kaufman's books and there were 2 Flashback PT's in the same picture. Both ribbed differently. Go figure..................

[RAW]

Doesn't it depend on whether you cast with your right hand or your left? :)

My boss said, "Raw, your counter-productive." I said, "Yes, but I'm durable!" :)

[Flytier]

Some time ago I spent a fair bit of time trying to formulate a comprehensive definition of "counter wrapping", and kept hitting dead ends and ambigeous phrasings, As soon as one starts to talk wrapping directions one hits "right to left", left to right", "away from the eye", towards the bend", "over the shank away from the tier", "towards the tier", and the like...

All pretty confusing considering the variety of patterns, righties vs. lefties, etc.

In the end I sat down and considered which tying problem I was trying to solve. When you drill down on it, all we are trying to do (aside from possible ethetics) is to make sure that the slant or angle one material is wrapped is different from the slant or angle of the next or previous material.

The logical conclusion I arrived at is that in the real world of tying, the term "counterwrapped" is a bit of a mis-nomer. As stated in the previous paragraph, all it really means in the final result is that slants are crossed. No more, and certainly no less.

Cheers,
Hans W

[Drake]

And "slants are crossed" the easiest by counter wrapping.

[Flytier]

Drake,

Sure ;-)

Now you tell me what you consider to be counter wrapping and I will agree with you even more.

Cheers,
Hans W

[Larry S.]

.....Getting back to nightfish's original question, do you think it makes much difference as to "durability"?


ps--- I enjoy your website and have for several years. Keep up the good work.

[cheech]

.....Getting back to nightfish's original question, do you think it makes much difference as to "durability"?


ps--- I enjoy your website and have for several years. Keep up the good work.

I think it depends on the pattern. I will NEVER tie a bugger or Pheasant Tail, or EHC without reverse ribbing it. Hare's ears etc, not so important. If the body material is fragile, you gots to reverse rib it.

"What do I know, I'm just a goat tied to the truck..."

[Flytier]

Larry,

Hard to answer that question in absolute terms, as it depends on the ruggedness and durability of the underlying material. It for sure does not detract from the durability, and offers additional characteristics such as segmentation and a degree of flash.

Thanks for the comments on my web site. Stay tuned for many more additions in the coming weeks and months.

Cheers,
Hans W

[powerbait]

I saw an interesting idea recently in a Dave Hughes book for tying peacock or pheasant bodies. He leaves the tag end of the thread long and then twists the thread in with the herl/fibers before wrapping. That adds durability w/o counter-wrapping.

[Flytier]

Powerbait,

It is a good technique, except I prefer the look of untwisted peacock on the finished fly.

I generally leave the tag end also, but wrap the peacock herl as per normal (untwisted), and then run the thread over it in an open spiral. Different slant to herl ;-)

Cheers,
Hans W

[Cary]

good to see you on the site, Hans

-Cary

[Flytier]

Thanks Cary,

I signed up eons ago, but am mostly quietly hovering in the shadows ;-)

Cheers,
Hans W
back under his rock

[Jason]

Hans, good to see you on the board. When are you making it out to Utah?

Could you email me your address again, I lost it. :-)

[nightfish]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I still don't know how much I'll use it for my own ties though.

Hans,

For a description on direction, do you use the phrasing, over & away, or over and toward to describe the movement? For example, wrap the pheasant fibers over and away from the tier, while the ribbing is applied over and toward the tier, and both either toward the eye or toward the bend, depending on the pattern.

Also Hans, could you email me through the board? I have a question about your vise review from FF Magazine.

Again, thanks!

[Flytier]

Nightfish,

Exactly because one might be wrapping materials eye to bend, bend to eye, over and away or towards, there does not appear to be a concise description possible to cover the gamut, to describe "counter wrapping".

My earlier post attempted to home in on the result we are after, rather than struggle with the definition ;-)

I will email you via the board.

Cheers,
Hans W