Fish Poachers at Strawberry

[Minivan]

I fished Strawberry last Friday and Sunday. And to my surprise on both days I was checked by a DWR conservation officer. On Friday the fish cop was somewhat in a hurry and after a quick check of my license he was off to check other anglers. On Sunday two conservation officers zoomed up to us on snowmobiles and actually chatted for about fifteen minutes or so. One of the fish cops was actually pretty informative and what he told me about the poaching problem at Strawberry was just plain unsettling. According to the conservation officers, keeping illegally sized fish at Strawberry is a huge problem, both in the summer and winter. He estimated that 1/4 of all anglers checked are written a citation for keeping undersized fish. I asked the cop if he thought the problem was a lack of understanding of the law or just plain ignorance. He said without a doubt the anglers he cites know the regulations. He said these anglers simply can't release an 18" or 20" fish. According to him those fish are simply too large and it is too much of a temptation for these anglers. He went on to explain he even writes up numerous anglers for repeat offenses, week after week they have been caught violating the slot limit!!
I guess my question in all of this is why do people really have to keep fish that they know are illegal? Is it an insecurity/pshychological issue? Do these poachers think they must somehow justify the $30 in gas they put in their Dodge Power Ram to drive from West Valley City to Strawberry? Are they so insecure that they must keep these large fish just to validate their prowess as anglers? Do they enjoy the taste of cutthroat trout so much that they are willing to risk a hefty fine and a misdemeanor charge just to eat a fish?
According to the conservation officers patrolling Strawberry they feel they are up against an impossible task. But I guess before I start feeling too sorry for them, I have to remind myself that the DWR could solve this whole problem with a quick change of the regulations. They could do the unthinkable and make Strawberry 100% catch and release. They could substantially increase the fines and penalties. If a trophy game animal is poached the fine can be substantially higher. Why can't the DWR initiate a similar fine structure for fishing violations? In Blue Ribbon waters the fine should be higher. But then I have to remind myself that in reality the DWR really doesn't want to limit or eliminate harvest at Strawberry. It wants it to be a family fishery where harvest can still be possible. And there is the rub. The DWR simply can't have it both ways. So for now we will continue to see conservation officers run ragged to try to stem the overwhelming tide of poaching.

[FISHINWEAZ]

I think they should just up the fine. Maybe that would make anglers think twice before poaching.(stealing) If that doesn't work, maybe on the second offense, lets take their gear or worse maybe their vehicle.

[jdubya]

I think they should just up the fine. .

this makes a lot of sense. make strawberry a special fee zone by making the fine for poaching the second, third etc. time an elevated cost.

normal hit the first time (i just made a mistake), 5 times normal the second time (guess i'm stupid), 10 times the third time (guess i'm real poor now), etc.....think of all the hatchery trout that money could buy!!

[Mason]

I agree with confiscating their gear. Take their powerbait and ugly sticks away and they will think twice.

[Troutmaster]

3 strikes you're out. On the third offense, even if it is only half an inch from the slot, life in prison w/out parole!

[FISHINWEAZ]

If I catch 'em and turn them in, can I have their vehicle?

[Minivan]

fshfanatic
Your definition of poaching is simply incorrect. In fact check out the 2005 Utah Big Game Proclamation, page 7. It states...."simply defined 'poaching' is any illegal taking of fish, game or nongame wildlife".
The fact that the illegal act was done on private or public land has no bearing whatsoever. And yes keeping fish under 22" at Strawberry is poaching. b

[stripper]

I know that part of the problem at strawberry is lack of man power. I wish they would start some kind of project like they have for big game hunters doing projects through out the year and the DWR needs to make about 200 average joes part time fish cops and let them hand out some tickets. I would be willing to do it.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

your all barking up the wrong tree!!! Take it to the legislators. They make the laws. They decide the fines. Not the DWR.

I do agree, however, that the fines should be higher than what they are.

[Mike]

The DWR is facing an impossible task at Strawberry. (It's good to hear that they're up there though!) I do think however that if the fines / penalties for a violation were stiff enough, that it would cut down on the problem substantially. In addition to fines, I think that anglers ought' to lose their license for a period of time. Maybe a month for your first violation, a year for your second, etc.... If there were a lot more to lose than some cash or your rod, maybe people would take the regs more seriously. (or maybe not!)

[bkastel]

This is strange but in the 35+ years that I've been fishing, I have only been asked only once to show my license to a DWR officer. That was about 20 years ago on the Logan river. Even last year ice fishing at Pineview a DWR office came up to us and wanted to measure and weigh our bucket of perch for some kind of study. Never once did he ask to see a license.

Now speeding tickets - that's another story!

[Mike]

I've been checked on the Provo river 4 times over the years. I got towed to shore by a DWR in a kayak at Mantua for not having a life vest on my float tube... Unless there's some specific situation that needs looking into, I'm sure the DWR generally concentrates on the "big name" spots on weekends for the most part when it comes to checking fishing licenses.

[Lonnie]

Mini,

I heard basically the same story from a buddy of mine that fished the berry this past weekend. He said the folks next to them got busted and they got checked twice in two days.

Glad to see the "fish cops" out in force...

L

[GotFish?]

Busted first time take away their hunting & fishing opportunities for a year. On the second offense confiscate all equipment used in the commision of the violation, including vehicles. Third offense lifetime or 5 years suspended from hunting & fishing, confiscate everything, charge maximum fines allowed by law. And get the legislature to up all the fines. These are not people who are ignorant of the law. They know the regs and don't give a $hit.

[nightfish]

I don't think a person should lose their privileges on a first offense, unless it was an extreme case (like taking 30 fish). People make mistakes, and sometimes it is thru ignorance of the regulations. A second offense though, should carry stiffer fines. With a third offense, take their licence and gear. If somebody is busted after losing their licence...jail time...wouldn't that qualify as contempt?

What are the fines currently? What are the penalties against repeat offenders?

Maybe they should post the penalties at access points, so people can have a fresh thought about the consequences.

Poaching Hotline:
1-800-662-DEER (3337)

[Wyoming2utah]

I could be wrong on this, but I am pretty sure that in order for someone to hand out or write tickets, he must be a trained law enforcement officer. This is why you may be asked to answer questions for creel surveys without being asked to show a license...these people working creel surveys sometimes don't have the authority to enforce the law. If the DWR wanted to hire a bunch of people off the street to try and enforce the law, they would have very little authority to do anything.

Personally, i would like to see Strawberry closed for a few months during the summer every year or so...that way the fish could get a break.

[Wyoming2utah]

Uhhh...no, Fshfanatic, I am pretty sure you are wrong. In fact, at one time all DWR employees could issue tickets, but they are not all trained in law enforcement anymore, so many can't. There is a huge difference between a conservation officer and a biologist. And, I am 100% sure that most of the people running creel surveys do not have the authority to write tickets.

I can think of several instances, for example, where my older brother who works for the DWR had to call a CO to issue a citation.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

fshfanatic -- my dad has been a biologist for the state of Utah for 30 years. For about the first 15 years, he had to take law enforcement training every year in order to keep and carry a ticket book. This was required. This is no longer a requirement. Law enforcement is a completely different job. Biologists are NOT law enforcement agents. Biologists DO NOT have to complete POST, like law enforcement agents do. Summer workers and secretaries do not have the authority to enforce the law either.

Another thing to think about is this: Is there a reason for you to be checked for your license? Bkastel said he has only been asked for his license a couple times. Was there a reason to be asked for your license? If your obviously not doing anything wrong, should the DWR officer ask you for your license? The only time a police officer asks me for my license is when I have been pulled over for speeding (or some other violoation). Never have I been talking to a policeman, and had him ask me for my license when I hadn't done anything wrong....

[Lonnie]

Fanatic,

The Hepworths are right on this one. Having applied for a couple of jobs, with the DWR I can tell you that there are two types of employees. "Regular ones" and "Law enforcement" ones. The law enforcement officers get special training in such issues. The other don't. Interestingly, the enforcement officers can write you a ticket for ANY law you break in Utah, not just wildlife laws. If I remember correctly, a DWR officer was involved in a shoot out near Kamas a few years back helping the summit county sheriff. Do don't go speeding around on your way to the berry, or you might get a ticket for that too...

L

[Juke]

Interesting discussion. In Utah all biologists used to be classified as SFO's (Special Funcions Officers) this allowed them to write wildlife citations. The biologists hated this part of the job. As PBH noted they no longer have to perform this duty.

CO's need to have a certain number of "contacts" per month. This is where they visit a hunter of fisherman to check licenses, etc, even if they are doing nothing wrong. It is as much a PR function as a law enforcement.

Regarding enforced penalties for poaching it is up to the legislature to pass these measures. But the DWR can definately push such a measure, and find a legislator to sponsor the bill. Colorado implemented such a system a few years ago called the "Sampson law " dictating greatly increased penalties associated with poaching a trophy animal. Criteria has been established with regards to big game, if the animal falls into the criteria the increased penalties kick in. recently an individual poached a 6x6 elk, which fell in the Sampson range, which kick his rewtitution up to over $12K, lost hunting privledges in 18 states, and had to serve a 30 day jail term. People who turn in poachers of trophy animals are eligible to receive "Poaching Reported Rewards," which can include hard to obtain tags for limited entry hunts. This program has worked so well, they are trying to find a way to implement it with regards to fisheries.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Fshfanatic -- any citizen can "issue" a ticket to anyone. But, you have to contact a law enforcement agent to get the citation written. Then, you have to sign the ticket. This also applies to biologists that work for the DWR. If you are breaking the law, a biologist can contact law enforcement and have them issue you a ticket. Then, it is up to the biologist to prove that you broke the law.

Also -- Mini mentioned that the officer thought taht 1 in 4 people were breaking the law. I kind of think that is a little bit high (I know, it was just an estimation). I am going to see if I can get the actual numbers on this....they should be available.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

So, I looked at some numbers, and I believe that when Mini posted an estimate of 1/4 anglers getting citations for slot limit violations, I think it should have been 1/4 violations were for slot limit violations. These numbers are only for Strawberry Res.


Here are some numbers I was able to find:

2002
Compliance = 92.4%
Resource Violations = 0.7%
General Wildlife Violations = 7%

2003
Compliance = 95.3%
Resource Violations = 2.7%
General Wildlife Violations = 1.9%

Resource Violations are Over Limit, Slot Violation, size Restriction, closed waters.
General Wildlife Violations are License, illegal methods, two pole, etc.

In 2003 about 450 tickets were issued and about155 were for slot limit violations or 35%.


It doesn't look to me like 1 in 4 anglers are recieving tickets, more like of those that get tickets, 1/3 are for slot limit violations.

Statewide compliance goals are somewhere near 90%. So, it looks to me like Strawberry is actually better than goals.

[WestFork]

Would COs on the ice even have the means to verifiy repeat offenses in the field, by which to issue violations with higher penalties? (ie communication systems, databases, etc, of which police officers have access)

[PowerBaitHeppy]

West Fork -- would they need to? But, they do have radios, etc. in their vehicles, so once the information is back to their trucks, yes, they would be able to do the same thing as a regular police officer.

Again, I think we are barking up the wrong tree. CO's write the tickets, they do not judge, or assess a penalty. That's up to the courts, and legislation.

[Minivan]

As far as CO's knowing when a person is a repeat offender, the guy I spoke with said he has written up the same anglers consecutive weekends for the same violation. Also I think it would be a good idea for the DWR to seriously try to lobby for increased penalties for violations that occur at a Blue Ribbon fishery. Why can't Trout Unlimited do something useful and try to get this issue elevated? I mean in theory if the Big game folks got additional fines for trophy game animals, the same rationale should apply to fishing violations. If a person poaches a trophy mule deer versus a small 2 point. The fine is substantially higher for the trophy. But theoretically it is still just two dead deer. If a person poaches three large cutthroats out of Strawberry the fine should be higher than if a person was three fish over the limit on an urban pond.

[stephank]

I don't think a person should lose their privileges on a first offense, unless it was an extreme case (like taking 30 fish). People make mistakes, and sometimes it is thru ignorance of the regulations. A second offense though, should carry stiffer fines. With a third offense, take their licence and gear. If somebody is busted after losing their licence...jail time...wouldn't that qualify as contempt?

What are the fines currently? What are the penalties against repeat offenders?

Maybe they should post the penalties at access points, so people can have a fresh thought about the consequences.

Poaching Hotline:
1-800-662-DEER (3337)


You make some good points, I do think on occasion there are people who are ignorant about the laws. However, that is why we have proclamations. There really should be no excuses for violations because the rules are spelled out very clearly in the proclamtions, which are available free of charge. I think posting regulations and fees at access points may stop a few people, but the fact remains, there are still a lot of people who think the rules are for everybody but them and will ignore warnings. A perfect example: "Area closed, if you pass through this gate, You Could Die! 30 minutes later hundreds of people are risking their lives to recover bodies which are burried under 30 feet of snow. Death usually isn't a consequence of violating a fishing regulation, and the odds are in your favor as far as not getting caught. That is why we will continue to have people who think the rules are for everybody but them.

[powerbait]

Also I think it would be a good idea for the DWR to seriously try to lobby for increased penalties for violations that occur at a Blue Ribbon fishery. Why can't Trout Unlimited do something useful and try to get this issue elevated? I mean in theory if the Big game folks got additional fines for trophy game animals, the same rationale should apply to fishing violations. If a person poaches a trophy mule deer versus a small 2 point. The fine is substantially higher for the trophy. But theoretically it is still just two dead deer. If a person poaches three large cutthroats out of Strawberry the fine should be higher than if a person was three fish over the limit on an urban pond.

Increasing penalties for the illegal taking of fish and game is a very difficult issue in this state politically. Last time the DWR tried to do that, the legislature not only failed to increase any penalties, they reduced the penalty for poaching mountain lions. So, the DWR is understandably gunshy about opening up that can of worms.

As for TU, you'll have to excuse us for wasting our time on "useless" issues like habitat restoration, whirling disease, water pollution, and in-stream flows. With all those useless issues on our hands, it's hard to find time for the really important stuff like enforcing the slot limits on Strawberry. (Quite frankly, I think most TU members would love to see enhanced penalties for violations on blue ribbon waters, it's just not a ripe issue politically.)

[Tom]

Anyone know what the fine actually is?

I heard a story a few years back of a guy catching a 31" Rainbow on one of our more popular rivers. As it happend there were two DWR guys standing there as he was fighting the fish. As the story goes, he told them "get you're ticket book out, I am keeping this fish." He did, and they did and as I heard it told the fine was $100.

Now whether that is true or not I have no idea, but it seems that if the fine was hefty enough, someone would have to be pretty wealthy to be a (In the words of Sheriff Buford T Justice)"repeat offender"

[RAW]

I think we need to discover why there's this macho mentality about how big a fish is. Someone previously stated that these people just can't seem to let an 18 to 20-inch fish go. Why?

Is it proof of manhood to go home with bigger fish? Do we all need a picture of ourselves holding a 20-inch fish to prove something?

Look at the cover of most of the fly fishing magazines. Guys and gals with big fish, like this somehow proves something.

I'm all for catching as many big fish as I can, but I don't understand the "FISH ON" mentality.

I remember the days when I was a teen and maybe into my twenties, where the number of fish I caught, and how many big ones I caught, seemed to mean something, but I would think with maturity and prowess, the need to prove something would diminish?

[Sumner Newman]

Interesting discussion. The numbers PBH posted about compliance rates at Strawberry are very similar (or maybe the same) as what I remember Roger Wilson showing the SAA at their meeting last fall when he came and did his annual presentation to the association on the fall gill net surveys. The idea I got from Roger's presentation last fall was that compliance with regs. at Strawberry was really not a problem; in fact, compliance was higher than they thought it would be. Very different - almost opposite - from what the CO that Mini contacted said. Hmmmmm . . . . wonder where the real truth lies here? I will say though that I've never heard so many stories of COs working Strawberry like they are this winter. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like it really is a problem, othewise, why would they be working it so hard?

Also, if in fact, poaching at the 'berry is as big a problem as the CO painted it to be, it sounds like the DWR and others need to get their facts/data together and approach the Legislature again and show the need for increased fines/penalties. If the DWR had enough support from conservation/fishing groups, I would think the Legislature would likely be pressured to go along. Are these fines/penalties in statute somewhere? Are they part of a "fee schedule" or something similar that has to be approved by the Legislature each year? I recall hearing Jim Carter, Pres. of SAA, speak about this subject and although my recollection is a bit fuzzy as to exactly what he said, I recall him saying something about the fact that part of what they felt they needed to do up at Strawberry when they implemented the slot limit on the cutts was to get the Justices of the Peace in the area to increase the fines they levied or to levy the maximum fine. He made it sound like the JPs had a role in this, too. Is that the case, or just how does all this work?

[Wyoming2utah]

"Do we all need a picture of ourselves holding a 20-inch fish to prove something?

Look at the cover of most of the fly fishing magazines. Guys and gals with big fish, like this somehow proves something."

Like with many things other than fishing, photos provide memories...we take pictures of family and vacations not to be macho...why can't the same be said about fish? Don't we want to captivate our fondest memories with photos? Aren't many of those fond memories of the "big" fish?

As far as the big fish on fly fishing magazines go...well, I would say that is an obvious marketing tool or advertising technique. By showing pictures of big fish, the magazine is telling people that they too can catch the big fish if they only buy and read the magazine.

I think that many people have a hard time throwing the big one back because they are used to keeping what they catch and they are not used to releasing the "big" ones let alone catching them. I think it is similar to the hunter who has never shot a buck and sees many 2-points but who is hunting a 3-point or better only unit--he really wants to shoot that small buck, but legally he can't.

[RAW]

Back in 1976, the fine for catching and killing one brown trout with your hands was $35.00. This was on the Blacksmith Fork in Cache County. Wonder if the fine has gone up? And yes, I was a dumb kid, who thought if I could catch a brown trout with my hands, I was really something! The CO was a little overbearing to a frail scared kid but it made an impression on me and to the best of my knowledge, I have never broken a game law since.

[RAW]

You're right W2U. Memories are great. But I think there is a different mentality. I have way more guys wanting to show me the pictures of themselves with big fish than I do wanting to show me them standing next to their kids.

I'm going down to Sportsman's Warehouse right now and posting a picture of me and my family on the bulletin board! lol!

[Fred]

My dad and I got issued a warning this summer because we kept a fish that was within the slot. It was not at Strawberry, but all fish betwen 15 and 20 had to be released. I misread the regs and when we got checked, we had a 19 inch splake.

My Bad!

I won't make the mistake again, but I could see how somebody might not get it right.

Sincerely,

Dumbass Hick Redneck

[powerbait]

[QUOTE=RAW]I think we need to discover why there's this macho mentality about how big a fish is. Someone previously stated that these people just can't seem to let an 18 to 20-inch fish go. Why?

Is it proof of manhood to go home with bigger fish? Do we all need a picture of ourselves holding a 20-inch fish to prove something?QUOTE]


I think this idea is probably worth a thread all its own. I agree with RAW that there is something at work here beyond the perfectly good desire to preserve memories. In the end, I suspect it boils down to human nature, and it's a similar motivation that drives people to constantly seek more money, a McMansion in the hills, or a bigger car. It's not enough to be a good fisherman, we have to prove it to the world.

I see real beauty in landing a fine fish, releasing it unmeasured, and telling no one, content only with the memory. But that's just an ideal for me personally, and it doesn't come naturally (I have my share of fish pictures and fish stories).

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Every time I go to my Dad's house I pick up one of his old fish albums. I love to look through it and see pictures of my dad as a boy fishing with his dad. I hope that someday, my own kids will do the same with my albums. Furthermore, I hope my kids can look at my dad's albums, and see pictures of a Grandpa that they didn't get a chance to know. Maybe then, they will understand the passion involved in the sport of fishing. Maybe they will get to see who started this whole mess of Hepworth's terrorizing trout in Utah. It's all about memories. Not macho show the world what we can catch.

I will continue to take pictures of the fish I catch, big or small. It's not the size of the fish, it's the memory associated with the event. Is it ironic that the big fish usually create a more exciting event? A better fight? More adrenaline? Those are the things I want to remember. If a 12" brown can create the same type of memory as a 20" brown, then it gets a spot in my album also.


Sumner -- those are Roger's numbers.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Just doing a little brainstorming on the whole raising fines issue....

didn't Wyoming just drop the cost of their fines recently? It seems like CO's weren't writing as many tickets because they felt bad for the offenders. That is something to think about. Especially for first time offenders. If the CO's recognized offenders as repeats, it might be a different story. I could see warnings going up along with the rise in fines....something to think about.

Also, in Utah the maximum fine per fish is like $100. But, isn't that also up to the judge? I guess we can raise the fines as high as we like, but in the end it's all up to a judge, not the DWR, CO, or anyone else.

[raposaNegra]

Just send all of the kill em and eat em crowd up here on the south fork where there is no limit on rainbows.... and we are finding a couple of bows over 20" on every outing. The question then becomes.... can they tell the difference between a bow and a cutthroat..?

[baetisman]

A little explanation of how fines work: For all offenses, there is a maximum fine that can be imposed. For example, a lot of wildlife offenses are class B misdemeanors, which have a maximum fine of $1000. There is also a surcharge that applies to most fines, turning the maximum on a class B, up to $1850. Judges can impose up to that amount. The legislature can also set "minimum mandatories" which require a judge to impose a miminum fine. They do this for things like DUI.

For most fines, there is a guide given to judges which is called the uniform fine and bail schedule. The schedule recommends a fine for certain types of offenses. This is designed to make sure that fines are generally uniform from judge to judge. Possession of fish within a slot might be uniformly set at $75. A judge can deviate from this, but usually won't.

In addition to fines, the legislature has created restitution amounts for game. A person who illegally takes a fish would be required to pay a fine, and pay the DWR restitution for the fish ($25 per fish for example). The legislature can also create enhanced penalties for subsequent convictions.

So to change the penalties, a group could go to the legislature and ask for minimum mandatories and increased restitution amounts, and increased penalties for subsequent offenses. A group could also approach the judiciary and ask for the recommended fine amounts to be changed.

[Lonnie]

Is it proof of manhood to go home with bigger fish? Do we all need a picture of ourselves holding a 20-inch fish to prove something?

Robert,

I'm with you. I think it takes a bigger (wo)man to be able to just admire the fish (no matter how big or small) and slip it gently back into the water and watch it swim away. Something about the moment, nature and connections....

[Utah DaveII]

It doesn't look to me like 1 in 4 anglers are recieving tickets, more like of those that get tickets, 1/3 are for slot limit violations.

Statewide compliance goals are somewhere near 90%. So, it looks to me like Strawberry is actually better than goals.

Maybe the problem is worse in the winter? And they are increasing the patrols? you know it is cold and the mind begins to numb in cold weather. Of course I'm sure that their is a little bit of "Jack" out on the ice too!

I don't fish the berry a whole lot, but I've seen CO's out there a couple of times over the last few years.

[Trav]

A CO told me once that the fine was $300....Could have been a scare tactic or something....or maybe it was the gallon sized buckets full of powerbait that caught his eye. jk

I would like to see it closed to ice fishing and the slot size increased, especially for this year...Say 15-24" should be put back.

T

[Wyoming2utah]

I would like it closed to summer fishing or fishing in open water...that would surely improve the ice fishing! And, there would be lots more big fish swimming around eating chubs.

[Grizz]

I agree, on one of many 100 fish days at the Berry last year I caught numerous fish that where 23", kept one & ate it. She was heart stuck like a stuck pig & bleeding all over the place, quite gory if you ask me. I took a sharp blade to 'er & fed my pup the eggs & red organs. I'd like to see some bigger fish than 23", those get kinda boring after a while, wouldn't you agree? Fred? I think the fish cops in this state should start worrying about conservation a little more & less about taking the fun out of fishing.


peace

[catch&release]

i have read all four pages of this thread on poaching and hate to beat a dead horse but i feel the fine and conseqences are just not high enough for repeat affenders. anyone can make a mistake or fish somewhere and not read up on the regs befor you fish, you could be in a hurry to fish or just to lazy to find out but its the repeat affenders that need to be cracked down on hard......
example few years ago in july fishing mantua in the small stream that flows into the lake. for years i could go back in and fish size 24 and 26 black midges and have caught over 100 fish in a day up to 26 inches long. all catch and release of course. was fishing back in the brush in the stream one afternoon and powerbait floated by and i walked out and up the road and found two guys fishing power bait and worms on a artificial lure lake with a basket full of fish. i walked by them and said hey, do you guys know this is an artificial lure lake. they said oh realy. i said yah, your truck is parked 3 feet away from the sign and you had to walk by another sign to get here. they just turned and keep fishing. i went to my truck called the hotline on the license and 15 minutes later the game warden showed up thanked me and wrote them citations. i talked to the warden for about half an hour after the poachers left. this was on a tuesday. i went back on wednesday afternoon and they were there again, same 2 guys. they packed up and left within a few minutes. i went back thursday afternoon and they were there again. they left immediately. i went back friday afternoon and they were already packing up and were almost driving out as i arrived. i called the same gamewarden again and warned him about this but if these guys are there every day and filling there baskets, your have to take drastic measures to stop this kind of poaching like impounding there vehicle making there life a holly nightmare. when a few good examples are made and word gets around these kind of people will think twice. the problem is you have to nail a few of these types of violations and throw the book at them. word of mouth will spread just like with anything good or bad. sorry to ramble on.

[Rod]

...I would like to see it closed to ice fishing...


Does anybody have any stats on winter verse summer mortality rates due to fishing?
I’m no limnologist but if I remember correctly during the winter months the lake doesn’t stratify thus making the entire water column the same temperature, which essentially eliminates the thermocline. Plus during the fall turn-over oxygen is distributed equally throughout the water column.

I would think that the mortality of summer fishing is possibly higher due to the thermoclines. (different water temps and oxygen concentrations)

[Wyoming2utah]

Does anybody have any stats on winter verse summer mortality rates due to fishing?
I’m no limnologist but if I remember correctly during the winter months the lake doesn’t stratify thus making the entire water column the same temperature, which essentially eliminates the thermocline. Plus during the fall turn-over oxygen is distributed equally throughout the water column.

I would think that the mortality of summer fishing is possibly higher due to the thermoclines. (different water temps and oxygen concentrations)

I don't know anything about limnology, but I would be willing to bet that the number of fish harvested is higher during the summer months than the winter months. Just think how many more fish would be in the lake for the ice fishermen if summer fishing were eliminated!

[catch&release]

oh buy the way for repeat affenders there are boxes on the back of your fishing license to help the gamewarden know if he has written you up for the same violation or not.

[Trav]

There are more factors. What is the bigger threat of poaching?

-Trollers?
-Bait Fishers?
-Fly Fishers?

Summer time is typically less effective from the shoreline so you need to get out and find those fish. I look at it very simple, no need to go all bioscientifical on me, the fish are going to find the more comfortable water, which is not going to be on the shoreline durring the summer months. Ice fishing gives the average Joe/Sally the opportunity to angle anywhere on the lake.

I agree that the mortality of caught fish would increase for summer fishing. I would have a hard time believing the catch ratio is higher in the summer than the winter though.

Trav

[DrewTrout]

Ice fishing gives the average Joe/Sally the opportunity to angle anywhere on the lake.

No it doesn't. Unless they have equipment to get them out (snowmobiles, 4 wheelers, etc...), the majority of anglers stay within 500 yards of their access point. There are "barriers to entry", if you will, to ice fishing as well.

[Rod]

...I would have a hard time believing the catch ratio is higher in the summer than the winter though.Trav

For me pesonally, I have been skunked or near skunked more ice fishing than when fishing in the summer. I fished it a few Saturdays ago and in 4 hours I only had one fish through the hole. (it was a beauty though, wish I had brought a camera :) )

[Trav]

Ok, let me be more specific. They could walk out 300 yards out further than they could cast in the summer time.

Rod, this is true becuase you are not covering as much water. But it sounds like there is a problem with people keeping fish so they must be catching quite a few.

Strawberry has the potential (if it isnt already) to produce some very large fish. And I feel we should do what we can to help. The slot limits have already increased the size of fish..and it is a lot of "fun" to go out and hook into so many aggressive, large cutts.

Trav

[PowerBaitHeppy]

heck, I say shut down Strawberry to fishing year round! Then those fish should really do well! With no predation by anglers, think of the size those fish could reach! I'm for it!

[Rod]

Ok, let me be more specific. They could walk out 300 yards out further than they could cast in the summer time.

Rod, this is true becuase you are not covering as much water. But it sounds like there is a problem with people keeping fish so they must be catching quite a few.

Strawberry has the potential (if it isnt already) to produce some very large fish. And I feel we should do what we can to help. The slot limits have already increased the size of fish..and it is a lot of "fun" to go out and hook into so many aggressive, large cutts.

Trav

Trav not to argue but... people get out in the summer just as much, I recall all the posts in the summer months of "don't all the damn boaters have any ethics" or " I couldn't fish for all the boats"

2) the reason it sucked for me a few saturdays ago is cuz my fish finder went teats up and I couldn't locate the fish :)

3) Strawberry does have the potential and is producing some great fish and yes it is fun to go out and hook into aggressive, large cutts, summer and winter.

according to Roger Wilson's numbers it seems compliance with the slot is better than the rest of the state. I am glad to see the increased patrol and would like to see higher fines imposed for those that break the law. As well as I would love to see the slot moved up a few inches, and I wouldn't complain if it became catch and release only.

But dude, don't knock all the cold footers

[Trav]

Well, I feel the way I feel and you will hear it straight up and to the point with me but that is one resevior that I think would benifit from an ice fishing ban. I have minimal ice fishing experience but I would like to think that I am a fellow "cold footer"....it just happens to be in running water.

Trav

[Tom]

Took all day to get the boat in the water.

[Minivan]

Personally I would like to see Strawberry closed to ice fishing. I ice fish Strawberry quite a bit, I would bet at least 20 days per year. I have caught some very large fish through the ice (see my living room wall, see a couple of photos in the gallery). But I would like to see it shut down in the winter for a number of reasons. First off as DrewTrout correctly pointed out ice fisherman are definitely limited at Strawberry. The reservoir is largely inaccessible in the winter. The road is closed past the marina. The road is also closed on the Soldier Creek side. If you drive up to Strawberry this time of year on a weekend, you will see hordes and hordes of fisherman at only certain spots, Chicken Creek (Jakes Bay), the Ladders, Mud Creek and the Marina area. That is it. The rest of the lake can only be accessed by snowmobile and this year the ice is very sketchy out in the middle, so even snowmobilers are having a tough time. Secondly it seems the common denominator in alot of world class fishing lakes is they are closed in the winter. Stone Lake in New Mexico, Henry's Lake in Idaho, Sheep Creek Reservoir and Lake Billy Shaw on the Duck Valley Indian Reservation are all closed in the winter.
In reality however the DWR would never close Strawberry in the winter. A certain economy and industry is suppored by ice fishing at Strawberry. Walk down the aisles at Sportsman Warehouse, the majority of those poles, augers, jigs, sleds, frozen minnows, waxworms, etc, are being used at Strawberry. Heber City and Sportsman Warehouse would have an absolute fit, if the DWR even considered closing Strawberry in the winter. Unlike the naive Hepworth's who believe everything is based on sound biology, economics and public sentiment also play a big role in the DWR's decisions.

[BRN]

So if accessibility is an issue and most here believe that ice anglers are not able to reach most of the reservoir (and, hence, most of the fish), then what is the biology behind the idea of closing Strawberry to ice fishing?

[GotFish?]

Another vote here to close the Berry to icefishing. However, it will never happen because the powers that be consider ice fishing to be the "great equalizer." Someone who cannot afford a boat or float tube can walk out on the ice, drop a line through an existing hole, catch big fish, stuff some back through the ice, keep a few to add to those already too freezer burned for the cat to eat, and go home happy! Oh and they keep buying licenses, what more could you ask for?

[RAW]

What about throwing the DWR theory back into the equation. Without the poachers taking their fish, is it not possible that the Berry could eventually have too many fish and then they will start stunting?

[cardiac]

Apparently the fish cops set up road blocks in the summer (just before you leave to SR 40) Set them up in the winter. Or sit in the crowded parking lots and wait for them to get to their vehicle. Don't give anyone a chance to chuck them. Another idea. Volunteers to hand out printed regulations as fishermen pull into park, and remind them to read the regs because the C.O.s' will check and fine them for poaching. And remind them poaching includes fish in the slot limit.
Then again, I vote for close it in winter.

[tightline]

People who turn in poachers of trophy animals are eligible to receive "Poaching Reported Rewards," which can include hard to obtain tags for limited entry hunts. This program has worked so well, they are trying to find a way to implement it with regards to fisheries.

This is all I needed to hear. I will spend my days finding fish poachers and turn them in all day long. If the DWR will simply give me one day on Mountain Dell for each poacher I help nail.

That would be well worth it. Imagine the amount of scum we could prosecute and get a great reward for it. The DWR would get rich and it would cost them nothing in return. Just some simple controlled access to prime water.

[tightline]

even if they only acted on one in ten it would be worth the effort!

[stripper]

Does anyone know if there is any truth that when you bring a fish through the ice on a cold day with some wind chill a fishes gills will freeze and even if you put them back they will die? I guess this could go for any fishing in the winter months fly,bait,etc

[Sumner Newman]

Another definite vote here for closing Strawberry in the winter.

Also, what about taking Juke's idea that's working so well in other states with hunting, and applying it for those who turn in people who illegally stock fish? Give the tipsters entry to a trophy water that virtually no one else can get on. Might that help curb illegal stocking activities?

[nightfish]

The DWR isn't why Mtn Dell is closed. The reservoir is owned and operated by SL County for culinary water. No chance of fishing it.

But I sure wish I could. Many thoughts of camo, face paint & night vision have passed thru my head.

[Rod]

So if accessibility is an issue and most here believe that ice anglers are not able to reach most of the reservoir (and, hence, most of the fish), then what is the biology behind the idea of closing Strawberry to ice fishing?

So far I have heard no biological argument for closing it in the winter. The only reason I have seen so far is that Joe/Sally public, with a minimal investment, can walk out on the ice and have a chance at catching the fish of their lifetime, and apparently that is not acceptable to some here.

[Fred]

The DWR isn't why Mtn Dell is closed. The reservoir is owned and operated by SL County for culinary water. No chance of fishing it.

But I sure wish I could. Many thoughts of camo, face paint & night vision have passed thru my head.

Speaking of poaching, Sounds like a great idea. Now I know why you call yourself "nightfish".

What is in that pond? Cutts?

[Wyoming2utah]

The truth is, Rod, there isn't a good reason for closing it down in the winter. In fact, there are better reasons to close it down during the summer than during the winter. But, obviously, fly fishermen would be totally against that. My vote is to close it during the summer so that the ice fishing is much better...I say disallow anyone the chance of fishing it unless they drill, pound, or carve a hole in the ice and drop their line through it. I feel that the ice fishermen are being unfairly discriminated against in this state and others...I don't know of one single lake that they have all to themselves. The fly fishermen have their fisheries, the bait fishermen have theirs, why can't the ice fishermen have a lake to themselves too?

[nightfish]

Someplace would have to freeze over first.

[Minivan]

WYO2
Didn't your Dad push for having the Boulders closed to ice fishing? The biological reason was the brookies school up around springs in the lake, making them easy picking during the winter. The same argument could be made for Strawberry, except the fish aren't concentrated but the fishermen are. I remember certain areas of Strawberry used to be very productive, places such as the Ladders and Jakes Bay. However that was a number of years ago and frankly ice fishing wasn't nearly as popular back then as it is now. Now those two areas I just mentioned are virtually hammered by ice fishermen. And guess what they do not fish nearly as well in the summer as they used to. Other areas on Strawberry such as the Renegade point area fish much better than other parts of the lake now, because those areas aren't accessible by the ice fishermen. If Strawberry was plowed clear around to Renegade Point and if Soldier creek were plowed, I would not want Strawberry closed in the winter. But with the extremely limited access you have literally hundreds of guys fishing only certain bays. If Strawberry was plowed in the winter it would have a much better distribution of fishing pressure. It would be no different than in the summer if only certain bays were open to boaters. You would see boats stacked on top of each other to fish the bays that were open.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

I still think it should be shut down all year. Those fish would have a real chance to get huge then....


I would like to know why you guys want it closed. The fish are already averaging almost 20"! What more do you want? By reading other threads, specifically the Proof of Ignorance thread, I thought size didn't matter to any of you. Now, you want to close Strawberry to ice fishing because the ice fishers are letting the wind chill (which, coincidentally doesn't actually drop the temp) freeze the gills of the fish that are being kept.

Minivan is the only person that can come up with a real reason, and it's not even very good!

Close it in the summer, so that those flyfishermen, and bait dunkers alike, can't pull one of those pretty trout out in the 95+ degree sun and have their gills instantly fry due to the wind.


Come on guys, isn't there something that will benefit the fisheries a little more than closing Strawberry in the winter?

[Trav]

I will say that there are people of all types of fishing that say the same thing. One common denominator - to many fish are pulled out of the ice. My own personal thought has already been mentioned by a few. I would like to see it managed as a trophy water which most of them are closed to ice fishing. Do I know why? No. But I put my trust in the wildlife services in each state to make that decision for me...since they are the edjamacated ones. We are always talking about other states that know how to manage their fisheries...And some of those close their lakes off to ice fishing.

Brent, come on man...Size doesnt always matter to everyone. For those that do, they mainly fishing nothing but stillwater searching for those really big fish. I just think it would be "fun" to hook into some big cutts once in a while. Besides the fish there are only going to increase in size. This year some large fish were caught. I would be willing to bet that we will start seeing fish in the 24-28' range this year.

Trav

Trav

[Cary]

I think the whole State ought to be dry-fly fishing only. If you want to nymph, go to the south platte. If you want to sling bait, head to Idaho.

I think only parachute adams should be allowed, to save on tying materials. Size 16 at that. If you cant get em with this, you're a poser in expensive plastic pants.

[Wyoming2utah]

"to many fish are pulled out of the ice"

Trav, that's just it, though...more fish are not pulled through the ice than other times of year. In fact, harvest rates are just about the same year round. The idea that ice fishermen catch all the fish at Strawberry is just plain false....like I said before, fishing pressure at Strawberry is much much higher during June, July, and August than any other months. Again, what it all boils down to is that fly fishermen are selfishly wanting the fish to themselves. An equally, if not better, argument can be made to close the lake down during the summer.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

"We are always talking about other states that know how to manage their fisheries...And some of those close their lakes off to ice fishing."

The grass is always greener, my friend.

Utah does close some lakes to winter fishing. The Boulder Mtns. are a great example. But, the difference between those lakes on the Boulder and Strawberry is that there is a good reason (vulnerable Brook trout)to close those lakes on the Boulder. Cedar Mountain has a lake closed to ice fishing (duck creek) and it is due to safety. There just isn't a good reason to close Strawberry. If there was a good reason, you wouldn't be asking for it, it would already have been done.

Mini wants to attribute this to economics. Of course, the the economy benefits by anglers that fish Strawberry in the winter. But I dont' think that the reason Strawberry is open in the winter, is because SW benefits from it. The reason it's open to winter fishing? Because there isn't a reason to close it.

[BRN]

I just think it would be "fun" to hook into some big cutts once in a while. Besides the fish there are only going to increase in size. This year some large fish were caught. I would be willing to bet that we will start seeing fish in the 24-28' range this year.



So if the fish are getting bigger, what's the problem? Why shut anybody out of the party?
Can't we all just get along?

[PowerBaitHeppy]

This reminds me of Panguitch Lake a few years ago. A proposal was brought to the RAC to close the area around the Blue Springs tributary to bait fishing to protect the spawning trout (big brown trout). But, they only wanted it closed to bait fishing -- leave it open to artificial (fly fishing). Why is that? Were the flyfishermen upset becaue the bait fishermen were catching the big fish? Why does that bother flyfishermen? Had they proposed to close it to all fishing, I think I would have been a little more supportive of it. I hate it when we start wanting places closed, just to keep out a certain type of fisherman.

Agains the wishes of the southern region biologists, this proposal was passed. Buouys were placed 100 feet out into the lake to mark off the artificial only section of water. Then the drought hit, and the water receded until the artificial only area was a mud flat. The restriction was quickly scrapped.

Why is it that flyfishermen always want to be so restrictive....especially when there is not need for the restriction?

[Cary]

Why is it that flyfishermen always want to be so restrictive....especially when there is not need for the restriction?


Because we are better, and thus more deserving than you.

Havent you heard about Utah's "Cultural Divide"? Contrary to popular thought, its really about dry fly fishermen versus all other inferior forms of fishing.

[Trav]

RE: Fish Size
As I stated in previous posts, I would like to see the size restrictions increased by a few inches.

RE: Closed to ice fishing
Why not close it? As Mini stated, why do they have those restrictions on lakes like Henry's and other trophy waters? Take their reasoning, give them a call and aruge with them. That is were I draw my conclusion. I also think those fish take a beating by ice fishing. People just seem to not handle them well. So what if the DWR handles fish a certain way, does that mean that we should all start doing the same thing?

WY, do you really think that summer harvest is higher? I honestly cannot see that but my thinking must not be straight.

PB, I am not being so restrictive...this is for one lake that I believe would benifit from being closed to ice fishing. And yes, close it in the summer for a few months. Some private waters started doing that and it has improved the quality of fishing.

[Rod]

Because we are better, and thus more deserving than you.

Havent you heard about Utah's "Cultural Divide"? Contrary to popular thought, its really about dry fly fishermen versus all other inferior forms of fishing.
not sure if this was tongue in cheek but it seems to be a the sentiment at times

[Wyoming2utah]

"WY, do you really think that summer harvest is higher? I honestly cannot see that but my thinking must not be straight."

I think that fish harvest is virtually the same year round. I am sure that Roger Wilson has numbers to substantiate this; ask him. I do know, though, that fishing pressure is much higher during the summer. Angler hours go way up during June, July, and August and are much higher than any other time of year. Henry's Lake is totally different than Strawberry; it is much like the lakes on the Boulder Mountain--many years fish congregate around springs because of depleted oxygen levels. If ice fishing were allowed, the fish would be very vulnerable and easy to catch. I would think that other lakes that are closed during winter months have good reasons...if the reasoning behind closing Strawberry during the winter is harvest, it would make more sense to close it during the summer because angler hours are much higher and the whole reservoir is impacted not just certain areas.

Also, I think this state is more of a nymph fishing state than a dry fly state...let's ban nymphs.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Trav

Harvest rates are nearly identical in Summer and Winter. The difference? More anglers in the summer.

You really can't say that because Henry's Lake is closed in the winter, Strawberry could benefit from the same action. Why is Henry's Lake closed in the winter? And, would that same condition apply to Strawberry?

Let's see if we can find out why those lakes are closed in the winter, then we can compare that to Strawberry.

[Rod]

Trav you make it sound like anyone can go and catch double digit fish through the ice. This is just not the case. As with any fishing it takes many hours of practice to hone your skills to be able to catch numerous fish through the ice. Its more similar to flyfishing than you think. It's all about locating fish,color and size of lure, depth, presentation... Yah I am sure the people who fish with just a crawler or powerbait luck into a few fish but the people that are catching alot of fish are mostly using different types of single hook jigs that are as easy or easier to remove from a fishes mouth than those tiny little 32 bunny cheech midges. (cheech not knocking that fly, next to a 16 para adams it's one of my faves)

Yes people mishandle fish on the ice but I am not convinced anymore than other times of the year. I don't and others I fish with don't and that is all that I have control over.

[Minivan]

Trav
You have a good point. Obviously fisheries biologists in other states and on Indian reservations have found a very sound reason for closing certain lakes to ice fishing. In fact in alot of ways Henry's Lake is very similar to Strawberry. Both are about the same elevation, predominately cutthroat fisheries, both are open to both bait and fly fishermen, etc. Personally I think certain states and certain Indian Reservations hire the top notch biologists and other states, such as Utah, get the graduates that finish in the bottom third or so in their class. Obviously the cream of the crop biologists don't work in Utah. Too low of pay for one thing. Too much bureaucracy is another.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Wow. You guys need to visit Henry's Lake.

Henry's Lake is a very shallow lake with LOTS and LOTS of vegetation. What does this have to do with icefishing? Everything! When the lake is covered with ice the vegetation consumes all the oxygen. The fish will congregate in the inlets to the lake, where oxygen is entering the lake.

It looks to me like the biologists in this state are right on the same page as Idaho. They close Henry's Lake because fish are extremely vulnerable because they all congregate in the same areas. Hmmmm, sounds alot like the Boulder Mtns.

Strawberry is HUGE, and DEEP, and doesn't have the oxygen problems or vegetation problems like Henry's Lake.

find a new lake to use as a comparison.

[Trav]

PB,

It would be intresting to find out, but in all honestly I

As Mini stated, Henry's and Strawberry are pretty similar. Add to Mini's comments - Relatively shallow and does have springs throughout. EDIT - PB, you are right, it is VERY shallow and causes the fish to head for the springs.

One thought though, I have heard biologist get caught up in the science of it all and locked into a certain mindset which limits them to a degree.

WY, I do agree with one point but a slight change....Strike indicators should be banned.

Travis

[stripper]

Henrys lake is not very big and is chuck full of springs that would have soft or weak ice. I have no problem with ice fishermen but I would like the Hepworth brothers or some one else answer the question I posted about ice on the gills and will that kill a fish or not.

[newtyer]

Would be interesting to hear Ed Kents view on this? He is a contanct of the Strawberry Anglers Association.

[Minivan]

PBH
Sheep Creek Reservoir on the Duck Valley Indian Reservation. A very large reservoir, no springs, not shallow like Henry's. Closed in the winter. Unfortunately your theory does not hold up on this body of water. Treasueton Reservoir, very shallow, very weedy, open for ice fishing. Very similiar in depth to Henry's. Treasureton open in the winter, Henry's closed. Unfortunately another example where your theory fails to hold water, so to speak. Mainly it has to do with how much value that the biologists and anglers place on a particular body of water. Henry's Lake is cherished by biologists and anglers, thus it is closed. Strawberry is managed as a family fishery. Roger Wilson has said that over and over again. Thus it is open in the winter. End of story.

[Wyoming2utah]

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/news/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=2454

This article talks about the very problem Henry's Lake sees during the winter...this is probably the major reason it is not opened to ice fishing.

Stripper, if the gills themselves are frozen, the fish will die. But, exposing a fish to cold air or icy temperatures will not. Obviously, if you throw a fish out on to the ice and leave it for a period of time, it will die. Just as throwing a fish on to the bank will kill it during the summer.

[Junge]

Going to bang my head against the wall now.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

I would like the Hepworth brothers or some one else answer the question I posted about ice on the gills and will that kill a fish or not.

I guess that just depends on lots of factors. How quickly will water freeze at 32 degrees? How quickly at colder temperatures? Is it just the water that has frozen on the gills, or are the gills actually freezing? How long does it take for the water on the gills to thaw once the fish is back in the water?

I'm no expert on the freezing qualities of water. I guess your question mainly depends on temperature. At extreme temperatures, then it would be possible for the fishes gills to freeze very quickly. I would think that the gills themselves would have to freeze completely in order to do any permanant damage, but again, I don't know.


Mini -- there you go! Each lake has it's OWN set of circumstances that require it's OWN management plan. They are all unique. That's what I am trying to point out. By saying that those lakes are closed, and thus Strawberry should also be closed is the wrong take. You must look at each lake individually and see why they are closed. Obviously, Strawberry is different, and is thus managed differently.

Still, you guys haven't answered me on what you want! BRN made a comment earlier about the size of the fish is currently increasing. Why change it if it isn't broken?

[Wyoming2utah]

So, Minivan, why is Sheep Creek closed? Do you know? Why is Treasureton open in the winter? Do you know? Henry's Lake is cherished by biologists and fishermen...but that doesn't change the fact that the lake is probably closed to ice fishing because the fish stack up on springs. You imply that Strawberry is not cherished by anglers and biologists...the amount of money spent on it and the number of hours anglers spend fishing it prove you very wrong. Strawberry is managed as a family fishery...but closing it to ice fishing is stupid. If you were going to pick the season that affects the lake most and close it during this time, winter is not the time. Summer is.

[Lonnie]

I've been reading but I haven't jumped into this debate. Growing up in the south, I know very VERY little about ice fishing. But I THINK the answer lies in what the mortality rates are for fish released while ice fishing. If it's unusually high, then I'd be in favor of closure. (I googled and couldn't find a good answer (I guess it's pretty hard to study)) If not any higher than when there is open water, and folks are following the regs, I don't have a problem.

We do know that bait fishing has a higher mortality rate (30+%) that lure fishing (approx 9%).

L

[Trav]

My reasons (I dont expect anyone to agree with them or understand them) to close it to ice fishing

-Increasing problem with people poaching the larger fish which are needed to control the chub population.
-If winter and summer harvest is the same, wouldn't closing it increase the size and health of the fish. (given that the chub population would decrease and thus putting "balance" into the system).
-Fish are getting bigger, thanks to the slot limit (which should be raised to say 24") but it also seems that the harvest of larger fish is increasing. Do we not need fish above 22" to control the chubs? I believe that the average fish this next year will be in the harvest category.

Rod,
You are probably an exception. I would be ok with artificial only ice fishing since the mortality rates would go down.

[Jason]

You guys realize that PBH and W2U have stuck it to all of you....and you don't even realize it. They're just playing with your minds, getting under your skin, and trying to cause controversy. All I can say is hook, line, and sinker. You know half the posts, especially W2U's, don't add up and are clearly not their style and believes.

For me, I'm not convinced on this whole "closed to ice fishing" thing at Strawberry. I highly doubt that there's more harvest during the winter months. The angling hours are probably double or triple in the summer months. Doesn't make sense to me. Until I see evidence or something from the DWR or angler surveys...whatever, I don't get the closed to ice fishing thing. My vote is no.

[Minivan]

What always amazes me about Wyo2 and PBH is they typically have very little first hand knowledge of what they are talking about. For the most part they take the company line (DWR) and apply it to every single situation. My guess is PBH has probably never fished Henry's Lake, has probably fished Strawberry minimally, but is somehow a self-proclaimed expert on both!! I am heading to Vegas for a much needed vacation, it will be nice not having any explosure to this site for awhile. So you all around the middle of February.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Mini -- we own a condo in Island Park. I fish Henry's Lake my fair share. Strawberry get's it fair share of my fishing time also.


By the way, if any regulations are changed, I think that bait needs to be banned from this board. While in some situations I think that some mortality is a good thing, I'd hate to see the mortality on this site increase beyond what it already is at. C&R good, bleeding gills bad.

[Fred]

Bye Minivan. I'll miss you.

I think they should close Strawberry to ice fishing because all of the garbage the ice fisher anglers leave behind. Propane tanks, busted up tackle boxes, bear cans. You name it.

It's a sad site.

I don't think Henry's Lake is a good example of what or what not to do to a fishery.

Junge, careful buddy.

[RAW]

Fred,

I heard this year they will pass out little pamphlets that will teach the baiters to dispose of their garbage properly. Unfortunately, those papers are being shoved down the ice holes along with the other crap they don't want to carry out.

[Mike]

I think Strawberry should be drained and a massive theme park built in it's place.

[RAW]

Mike,

No draining neccessary. Give it 5 more years and the theme for the family fishery will be CHUBVILLE, again!

[Utah DaveII]

That 80% of the harvest on strawberry takes place on boats in the summer at Starwberry.

Bank fishing, Icefishing and flyfishing make up the rest. Once again we are taking the smallest most insignificant aspect of harvest at that reservoir and turning it into a mountain. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that fish survival in the winter is much better than C&R survival in summer at the Berry. My guess is those guys who are fishing sink in molasses fly lines that are picking up fish at 30' and then releasing their fish in August are killing far more fish than the ice fisherman are. Diving for 35' of warm water to the thermocline after being stressed cannot be good!

You want to help the fishery out at Strawberry, donate some money to Roger this summer as he tries to fence the Indian creek Corridor. He's also going to have to move a road that puts significant silt into the stream, that is going to add about another $50,000 to the project (don't worry Trav he's jsut moving the road so you'll still be able to get your 4 wheeling in). You guys that have got your shorts all in a knot over this should probably figure out a way to donate to the project. I can tell you that both Stonefly and SAA have already committed to contribute cash to this project.

The whirling disease issue is big here too. Last #'s I heard from Jim Carter put the Reservoir at about 40% natural recruitment. Whirling disease could put a nice dent in that # and the fish would have to come from the hathcery system. These are much bigger issues than ice fishing!

I'm just happy those CO's are out there trying to keep people in complaince. Enough visits by those boys in Snowmobiles and the number of violators will go down.

BTW I've got to e-mail Roger anyway, I think he is going to come to Stonefly in February. Why don't you guys show up and get the poop from him. He's a pretty good guy to work with.

[RAW]

How much will the ice fishers and bait fishers donate to the fence and road project?

Just curious here. Do any of you know of any organized bait or ice fisher groups who gather to discuss, promote and pay for fisheries improvements?

[stripper]

Does anyone know if there is a circle hook small enough for trout?

[PowerBaitHeppy]

How much will the ice fishers and bait fishers donate to the fence and road project?

Just curious here. Do any of you know of any organized bait or ice fisher groups who gather to discuss, promote and pay for fisheries improvements?


BFT........

[RAW]

Does BFT publish how much they gather annually $$ for fisheries improvement.

When is their next meeting?

Do they do any thread the worm on the hook Saturday morning demos?

[PowerBaitHeppy]

...nevermind. Deleted it all. This has gotten to be a "my dad can beat up your dad" debate.

Dave MMV, thanks for bringing a little light to the thread.

[DrewTrout]

Wow! What an open minded conversation! Do you guys really think that more fish are being harvested in the winter? Do you really think that all that venture on the ice are redneck yahoos? Do you really think that more garbage is dumped in the lake by icefishermen than by shore fishermen, tubers, and boaters (and all of their two stroke oil)?

Based on my research (yes actual research) during creel studies, I found some interesting things:

1. On creels that I conducted over three years, harvest ratios were more along the line of what Dave noted.

2. Icefishermen were in general quite knowledgable and specialized in their methods - not just drill a hole and drop in the powerbait.

3. Icefishermen had a substantial investment in their sport.

4. The percentage of fish that were deep hooked (gut hooked) was lower in winter. Very few actually use just bait - primarily lures tipped with bait.

5. While I don't have hard facts for this, the general trend seems to be that an area in a reservoir like Strawberry is not "fished out", but rather as the season progresses, some fish are harvested and some fish migrate to areas of lower pressure.

Note that my creels were not at Strawberry - just for clarification.

This argument really seems to be between those that icefish, enjoy it, and know what it is about; and those that don't and really want it closed for their own selfish purposes.

[Wyoming2utah]

RAW, you imply that bait and ice fishermen don't contribute their time or money to conservation causes...I would be willing to bet that they contribute much more than fly fishermen. I would be willing to bet that the many dedicated hunter hours put forth by people in this state are from people who bait and ice fish...i would also be willing to bet that many members of TU are people who bait fish and ice fish their fair share. The funny thing about your opinion of Strawberry is that many other negative-minded fishermen have been saying the same thing about the reservoir for years...

I think Drewtrout hit it on the head....

[Fred]

This argument really seems to be between those that icefish, enjoy it, and know what it is about; and those that don't

Thanks for the clarification.

But, maybe someone will start a site called Utah Ice Fisher Anglers, or something along those lines.

Then, we can all go there and talk about fly fishing.

LOL.

[Utah DaveII]

That SAA has a fair number of its members that are bait and ice fisherman. It is not just a flyfishing organization. There are other organizations that have contributed to the cause.

The matching funds for the project may also come out of habitat council money (license revenues) and blue ribbon money. As W2u stated Roger will rely heavily on Dedicated Hunter hours to build the fence. So they probably contribute. Make no mistake about it, Roger is always gratefull to the FF "elitist" that dedicate their time for no other reason than they love the fishery. But we are not alone.

[DrewTrout]

Thanks for the clarification.

But, maybe someone will start a site called Utah Ice Fisher Anglers, or something along those lines.

Then, we can all go there and talk about fly fishing.

LOL.

Fair enough. Maybe Mike should create a new area simply called "B*tching". No one really cares about facts or the truth, just complaining about how others are ruining "their" favorite spots.

Dave and Powerbait have called us on the carpet when it comes to action, we would rather just complain. Now if you will excuse me, I need to go down to Sportsman's Whorehouse and pick up some supplies to go ice fishing this weekend. ;^)

[Cary]

not sure if this was tongue in cheek but it seems to be a the sentiment at times

My Hardy's a-screamin!

I was beginning to think my fly was overdressed, or perhaps I didnt have enough slack in my presentation.

Don't worry, I won't gill-gaff you.

[Tom]

We can have heated arguments about tip ups, and sled design. We could also have hole cutting contests and bitch about the damn flyfishers taking all of our fish throughout the summer and why Strawberry should be closed to protect our fish. :)

[Trav]

UTDave,

I will be the better man and bite my tongue.


My issue, as stated previously is not with ice fishers but with the harvest (especially the poachers) and other who feel they can release fish who have been DEEPLY hooked with bait hooks.

Good day...

Trav

[Wyoming2utah]

My issue, as stated previously is not with ice fishers but with the harvest (especially the poachers) and other who feel they can release fish who have been DEEPLY hooked with bait hooks.

Do you seriously think this happens more in the winter than summer? Does it bother you when fly fishermen release fish that have been "DEEPLY" hooked with fly hooks?

[Trav]

WY,

As you stated, mortality rates are the same for winter and summer. The debate is about ice fishing not summer fishing, but as I have stated, there are other waters around here that are closed in the summer, so I am not against that.

Deeply hooked flies, never had a fish swallow a fly so deep that I was pulling its stomach out.

Hi, my name is (whatever you want it to be) and I have release a blooded cutt at the berry before...In the hopes that it may survive.

I'm not sure how people are labeled elitist when they say no ice fishing on one resevior....Strange bunch of people nowadays...Did the FW crew take over?

[Wyoming2utah]

mortality rates are the same for winter and summer

I never said mortality rates were the same for winter and summer; I said harvest rates were close to the same. There is a huge difference...with all the added fishing pressure; the numbers of times fish are handled, released, and caught; and the limnology of the reservoir during summer (as others have noted), my bet is that mortality rates are higher during summer months than winter months. For this reason, I will again say that if you are truly worried about the health of the fishery, closing the reservoir down in the summer would make more sense than closing it down during the winter.

[Trav]

Sorry, I miss read your comment. I would be ok with that as well. Does it make me an elitist? If so then I am honored to be your company.

My only intent in this entire conversation is to keep improving the fishery. Obviously my thoughts and ideas are not in line with the edjamacated people.

Not sure why I hopped in on this one....

[Lonnie]

This thread's still here? Geeze you'd think we were talking about bait on the middle....

L

[cardiac]

Ok, let's leave the ice fishing alone. Keep it there, educate the fisherman that fishes Strawberry whether it be ice or open water fishing. Let the poachers poach, let the DWR/CO's give out tickets, let the honest fisherman dial the poaching hotline.
But damn, PBH and W2U, you guy really need to get a tv show and/or run for public office. You'll put Ophra, Dr. Phil, Ricky Lake, the CBS Evening News, the leader of the free world (Bush) and the Pope completely out of business. Why should the mankind need anyone else when the Hepworths are running the planet. I haven't met you guys, but I feel like any world crisis or problems can be solved by you two (maybe a little help from the UDWR). Or at least you'll know the all the answers to solve the problems. I am a believer.

[ScottT]

The thing that bothers me was the article in the Standard or the Tribune (can't remember which - I was "pre-coffee" that morning) about want to increase the hole size to 12" or more.

You just KNOW that the reasoning for such a request is that it's almost impossible to get a 26"/8#cutthroat - let alone the slotties - up on the ice without reaching in and "gilling" the fish.

I suspect there's alot of dead fish in that reservoir right now directly attributable to landing methods.

ScottT

[cardiac]

You should ask W2U & PBH, I am sure they have a pie chart somewhere with the stats.
I knew it!!!!

[newtyer]

You guys are all crazy!

[Utah DaveII]

You guys should probably get the information from Roger himslef on the 24th of February.


Based on the 2001 creel data (2001 is the last year that we ran a comprehensive creel survey), only about 16% of the total harvest came from ice fishermen.
As you may recall, 2001 was an excellent ice fishing year, and ice pressure was as high that year as we have seen. Based on the 1996 creel data, only about 9% of the pressure and harvest came from ice fishermen. Ice fisherman are much maligned, and often accused of harvesting a disproportionate amount of fish. This is not true. The major portion of the harvest at Strawberry comes during the summer and comes from boats anglers. This is driven largely by pressure patterns. Summer fishing pressure (angler hours) is much higher than we see in the winter. During 2001, 73% of the total harvest came from boats. Of interest to note is the fact that during 2001, the highest release rates occurred during the months of January, February, March, April and December (i.e. the ice fishing period). Ice fishermen do release a lot of fish. In fact, they release in higher proportion than their summer counterparts.

I spoke with the Strawberry CO yesterday, and he estimated that about 10% of the anglers they are checking at Strawberry this winter are in noncompliance (rough estimate). Please note that this includes a number of violations categories including drugs, 2-poling, no licence, etc., and this does not just reflect violations of the slot limit. A 10% violation rate is often reported from other areas and waters as well.

[RAW]

Utah DaveII

Dang you! Took all the fun out of this thread. Can you start something else, so we can see if W2U and PBH take the opposite point of view again?

[Utah DaveII]

Thought 10 pages of this might just be enough. I'm sure we'll get them going monday though