Proof of Ignorance ...

[powerbait]

I've seen more than a few photos over the last few months--including some on this website--that show people mishandling fish: finger in the gills, sqeezing a fish, holding a fish with gloves on, fish dragged onto the bank or among the rocks for a mugshot, etc. Of couse, that's all well and good if the fish is destined for the frying pan, but it ain't so great if the fish is tossed back in the river. Unfortunately, I suspect that's just what happened with a lot of these. So, here's the question: what gives? It is ignorance, carelessness, or both? And what's the best fix (if any)?

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Hello. My name is PBH. I'm a Gill Gaffer.


anyone have a good report on mortality of fish due to mishandling?

[cheech]

I've seen more than a few photos over the last few months--including some on this website--that show people mishandling fish: finger in the gills, sqeezing a fish, holding a fish with gloves on, fish dragged onto the bank or among the rocks for a mugshot, etc. Of couse, that's all well and good if the fish is destined for the frying pan, but it ain't so great if the fish is tossed back in the river. Unfortunately, I suspect that's just what happened with a lot of these. So, here's the question: what gives? It is ignorance, carelessness, or both? And what's the best fix (if any)?


read the gill gaff post

[CycleFish]

The best fix is everyone quit fishing!

or stop carrying cameras

don't use gloves

wet hands

educate

[Grizz]

If there isn't water dripping off the fish in the photo, you're probably doing it wrong. Soft touch & fast. Someone who can operate a camera helps too.

Exploit!

pea's

[THeBLender]

Wasn't this exact thread just closed?!?

DOH!!

[FlyMan]

Here is a prime example.


http://www.utahonthefly.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=112&c=7&cutoffdate=all

[Stoney Clarke]

Check out condom head in this photo!
http://www.utahonthefly.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=108&goto=next&c=7&cutoffdate=all

[CycleFish]

Here is a prime example.


http://www.utahonthefly.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=112&c=7&cutoffdate=all


I think Mikes already been raked over the coal's for that one. And he gave a perfectly reasonable explenation.

Most people given the knowledge & opportunity will choose to do the right thing. But, when all said & done you are trying to slide a sharp piece of steel into their lip in the first place!

[DrewTrout]

How about this? Is this OK?

[Grizz]

I think Mikes already been raked over the coal's for that one. And he gave a perfectly reasonable explenation.

Most people given the knowledge & opportunity will choose to do the right thing. But, when all said & done you are trying to slide a sharp piece of steel into their lip in the first place!

Exactly, insert the steel! Fish ain't perdy ladies, as w2u sez, "it's a blood sport".............

;-)

p's

[DrewTrout]

Or this? Is this good?

[Tom]

Grizz,

Speakin of "puttin the wood", when you heading out for the frozen tundra again? If it's a weekend, coming up, let me know, we can give a few the steely bite.

I will gladly pay you Tuesday, for a Pabst today!

[FISHINWEAZ]

I distinctly recall this exact thread not too long ago.

Question 1- how do you know whether these fish were let go or not?

Question 2- is it morally right to post a question as to whether it is right or wrong, then say it's wrong and link a pic. referring to a particular person?

Question 3- Is a person so perfect that they have nothing better to do than ask questiond s like these?

I say no more... if U want more, go read the gill gaff

[powerbait]

Hello. My name is PBH. I'm a Gill Gaffer.


anyone have a good report on mortality of fish due to mishandling?

Geez, people! Didn't mean to beat a dead horse, but if this topic is oft-discussed, the information doesn't seem to be sinking in. (I didn't see the "gill gaff" post having only just joined the board.)

PBH: I did a little rooting around for a good mortality report, but couldn't find one. Most of what's out there addresses easy to measure stuff like barbed vs. barbless, amount of time a fish is played, amount of time a fish is held out of the water. It's much tougher, I'm sure, to design a scientific study that examines gill gaffing, squeezing trout, or pulling them up on the bank because degree of injury is hard to measure and standardize. Still, it stands to reason that mortality is going to be greater whenever any of these factors is present. Here are links to a few mildly interesting reports I read:

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/Fisheries/Alagnak/catch_and_release.htm(type of hook; length of time a fish is played)

http://www.mgfalaska.com/catch-release.html (reporting on a study on mortality relative to amount of time the fish is held out of the water)

[Utah DaveII]

Other than the gill gaff (not a big fan at all). I think that is the one way that really hurts the fish, I think people take how they handle fish way too seriously.

I think you guys need to accompany the dwr on a stream survey or spawning project.

First thing that happens is the fish gets hit with a nice jolt of electricity and gets netted up into a holding pen or bucket. If he is lucky enough to make it out alive the first time he gets whacked again on the second pass. Then the fish sits in a bucket or two with 50 or 100 of his closest friends for about an hour. After that the fish gets moved to another bucket where he gets a good dose of drugs to settle him down. Then he is picked up measured weighed and put in another bucket to be let go. In all I think about 10% -20% of the fish die.

The deal is almost the same for spawning fish with the notable exception that the fish get to be seperated one more time and all of the man juice or eggs get to be masturbated (stripped) out of this fish.

A lot of fisheries personel wear gloves and others do not.

I think if we spent half as much time worrying about other conservation issues as we do whether to net a fish or not, or whether to wear gloves, Powerbait would not only have his bill, but he would probably have a way to pay for it.

[CycleFish]

Geez, people! Didn't mean to beat a dead horse, but if this topic is oft-discussed, the information doesn't seem to be sinking in. (I didn't see the "gill gaff" post having only just joined the board.)



Geez people my butthola! The tone of your initial post was completely judgmental. This topic is often discussed because someone whilst browsing through the photographs decides to get on their high horse & idjucate the masses. Everyone's mishandled a fish at one time or another - it goes with the slimy wriggly territory.

[FISHINWEAZ]

Hey PBH, watcha say we get together and go head a Gaffin charter?

[steelie]

http://209.245.59.180/Gimme/75454610/99608274/49942246/0618F9B4-F9F3-4ADB-8A68-6870830FFD5D/0.517066/2/IM000159.AVI

[DrewTrout]

I think you guys need to accompany the dwr on a stream survey or spawning project.

Very well said Dave (but you forgot seine, purse, and gill nets). Having spent years (in the past) doing this research for the state, I can honestly back up what Dave says 100%.

Of course just to stir the pot, trout are by far the most delicate sportfish in the state.

[powerbait]

I don't see why everyone needs to be so thin skinned about this. Everyone mishandles fish, sure, and if the explanation for these pics is "honest mistake," or "the fish slipped," or "I fried him up and ate him," I have no problem with that. If, on the other hand, people think it's okay to handle fish that way and then release them, then I do have an issue (I'd call that ignorant). I've seen a lot of nice fish dead on the bottom of the Provo River. Some of that is inevitable, sure, but if you give a damn about the resource then this is a discussion worth having.

[FISHINWEAZ]

I would agree to that, but which species of trout would you say is THE most delicate?

[DrewTrout]

I don't see why everyone needs to be so thin skinned about this. Everyone mishandles fish, sure, and if the explanation for these pics is "honest mistake," or "the fish slipped," or "I fried him up and ate him," I have no problem with that.

You forgot "hang 'em on the wall"! ;^)

[FISHINWEAZ]

O.K. PB. We all know that it is wrong to do that. There is no one that I personally know that would do it intentionally either. Is that what you want to hear? Now that being said, what is it exactly that you would like to discuss?

[DrewTrout]

I would agree to that, but which species of trout would you say is THE most delicate?

Planter catchable rainbows - go t*ts up 30 seconds after being hooked. ;^)

Honestly, they all are - it just varies. Gill nets are death on all of them. Big trout die easier from shocking (there is a thread somewhere here on that). It does seem (just observation during research, not statistical fact) that the chars and browns are able to handle the abuse a little better than those of the Onchorychus genus.

[FISHINWEAZ]

Guess that may explain why alot of my "kept" bass will stay alive on that stringer for a long time. Kokes also.

I have noticed that rainbows will belly up before a brook will, just an example. Would there be a reason to that?

[Stoney Clarke]

Powerbait I'm with you, but you must change your handle. As a professional wrangle I know a thing or two about treating a trout (women) with gentle, soft, kind hands. Guys when handling a fish, think of your girl friend, wife or lover and treat them gently. Becuase if you do they will always be back for more.

SC

[powerbait]

"Keep your soap box standing judgemental speaches to yourself.

Testy, testy. Sounds like a guilty conscience. As for soap boxes and high horses, I love 'em. And if you think my fish handling views are elitist, don't get me started on nymphers, mullet hairdos, and people from Arizona ...

[Cary]

fanatic, what you suggest is a waste of game, and illegal in most places, And if I evcer caught you or anyone tossing a 22-inch rainbow on the bank to rot out of spite, we'd have some words. Now I know you are just saying that to make a point, but your point was well made without the wasting of gamefish remark.

[FISHINWEAZ]

As far as the personal slanders go, gotta stop. This is a discussion about handling fish. I'm sure you've got the just on what people think. If you haven't, let me help you out.

http://www.utahonthefly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10035&highlight=mortality

This discussion obviously isn't going anywhere & niether did that one. I really think that the just to this problem should be approached in a different manner.

Is this really a problem? Well judging to the original thread, it was a stupid picture that got someone riled up. A fish was held in the gill, so what.

If a fish was hooked in a bad way and you hurt the fish when letting it go, it goes belly up. What are you going to do? What if that fish was the wrong size to keep? Well, sorry, gotta let it go. It's bird food now. You probably didn't mean to do that, but hey, sh#t happens.

I bet that yourself and many others have had that happen a time or two. That's the way it goes.The dwr and everybody in any fish managries has had that happen. We all know that the improper handling leads to fish mortality.

I am just as guilty as the next. If I hooked one badly and wanna let it go, well then I just cut the line. The fish has a better chance of surviving if you do that. Sounds to me like you're that type of person. That's great.

All I'm saying is that because of a picture, a person shouldn't be so judgemental. Who knows, maybe that person kept that particular fish because they wanted to eat it or even mount it. If that meant gill gaffing the b^st^rd to make sure it didn't get away, so be it.

[Minivan]

Powerbait
You and your type are the exact reason I won't join Trout Unlimited. Here on this forum you have approximately 1,500 registered users to try and recruit and extoll the virtues of belonging to Trout Unlimited. But instead you do your best to piss off most of the anglers on this site. Nice job of marketing yourself and Trout Unlimited!!!

[Trav]

For me, it really comes down to respecting the resource and common sense.

To take a good friends line, If I stuck your head in the river and held it there so I could snap a couple pictures how would you like it? I'm no biologist, but the little fishies sure seem to struggle for air (which they are not getting any of) when held out of the water. This past weekend on the Green a guy hooked quite a few fish which he just had to take a picture of every single one. He would drag the thing up into the shallows, gently set the fish down on the ground, grab his net, put the fish in it (for picture purposes) and snap a few pictures. To then hook his net back to his vest and the last step was to put the fish back in. He showed no respect for that living being and the precious life he held in his hands. All he wanted to do was snap his pictures for proof of his days catch. I have seen worse examples

My issue has to do with the “gaff” pictures and the precedence it sets for new anglers who are forming their own ideas about the sport. A lot of that is people reading, lurking or participating in websites, viewing pictures, reading books, etc. If you’re going to keep it then who cares, gut the thing and stick your arm in up to your elbow or even put one on both arms. Just think about the future and have respect for the resource. I would rather (and will continue to do) error on the side of caution when it comes down to being responsible for a living being.

Like Grizz says, if there is not water dripping off the fish, you’re probably doing it wrong. I think that is a great way to keep it simple yet get the point across.

Trav

[FISHINWEAZ]

I noticed how slamming on sark got his pic to the top of the most viewed.

Then fanatic, can I get mine to the top?

here, go look. http://www.utahonthefly.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=121&c=7&cutoffdate=all
I'm ready for the slamming. :-)

[stout_trout]

I think I read somewhere that fish that is bleeding is as good as dead.

In that vein (no pun intended). I have a question.

TWO PART QUESTION:
1. Is there HONESTLY anyone here who has not hooked and landed a fish and in the process of removing the hook or simply at the time of release (dispite all caution and care), found that the fish was bleeding?

2. Upon noticing that the fish was bleeding...released the fish anyway?

I'll go first.

Hi, My name is stout_trout, and I've released bleeding fish.

I seldom fish to eat a fish, I'm almost never equiped to keep a fish... what am I going to do? Put it in my pocket until I get home?

[FISHINWEAZ]

If it hurts so many "ELITISTS" feelings, that these pics be shown, would you guys sleep better if they were removed? Just a thought, I mean that's all that can be talked about?
What do you think-Jason, Mike?
This thread is going nowhere!

[Trav]

You know what, it really is the people who are ignorant who ruin threads like this. It really is a good topic in which a lot of people would feel more adpt to participate in if all the negativity would stop.

I really do not understand why people are labeled as "ELITISTS" when they show a little more respect and responsibility for their actions and such a great resource. It really is lame.

Mike and or Jason would not have to monitor threads if everyone would take some accountability of their own actions and be respectful of one another.

M/J, if I overstepped my bounds, please ban me.

Trav

Removal of pictures..sure why not...

[Cary]

Kum by ya my Lord, kum by ya
Kum by ya my Lord, kum by ya
Kum by ya my Lord, kum by ya
Oh, Lord kum by ya.
Someone’s crying Lord, kum by ya
Someone’s praying Lord, kum by ya
“ singing “
“ laughing “
Come by here my Lord, come by here.

[PowerBaitHeppy]

UD MMV -- your post was kind of my sentiments also. I think fish can handle alot more than we want to think.....


A number of years ago I accompanied my father and another biologist to a remote stream on the west side of Pine Valley Mtn. This is a primitive area, and no motorized vehicles are allowed. This includes electroshockers. The purpose of the trip was to collect native Bonneville cutts to transplant to the East side of the mountain. The way we collected the fish was by hook and line. I can't tell you how many fish we collected -- probably a couple hundred (there were 4 of us total -- me, Richard, my Dad and Dan Duffield). The caught fish were put in a trap until the next day (just one night was spent). Then, we loaded up our fish in water coolers, and put them on a horse for the 7 mile trip out. The horse only dumped the coolers twice, and luckily we still had enough water to get them out. Then, they were loaded in the back of a truck for the 100 mile trip around the mountain, and then up a mean, nasty, bumpy road to the stream they were being moved to. The water coolers were oxygenated, and there was ice added to the water -- nothing else. When the fish were dumped into the stream we had 0 dead fish. None. Two days in a bucket, on horse back, dumped on the ground, splashed around in the back of a truck, and dumped into a new stream with NONE dead. Pretty resilient. I don't know how many died after the transplant, but I can tell you that over 10 years later there are still cutthroat thriving in the stream.

I am not condoning gill gaffing. That will kill fish (by the way, the picutre of the brook trout W2U caught....the fish was later filleted, and eaten along with a number of others...). Safe handling is something we should all be aware of. But, it can go too far. Where does it end? Maybe, when we all cut of the shank of our hooks, and count strikes as catches, then our safe-handling practices will be perfected.

[inland]

Basically, since this is nunamybusiness, fshnfanatic, why do you post pics of it? Keep it your business. And nobody will say a darn thing one way or another.

At the point, it became my business, is by looking at the 'look at me photo' and deducing what ever I choose from it. If I choose I can then respond in public, the same public forum, the pic is posted on. Or not. But I would be smart enough, if it's an honest mistake, to NOT POST THE GILL shot of a released trout. If you killed the fish, so be it. I don't care one iota. It's legal and I kill my share of fish too (hatchery steelhead).

If you choose to toss your limit on the bank to rot, I would then be obligated to make that the F&G officer's business.

It is a blood sport. No question about it. But I don't see the connection between a small piercing in the lip to scraping it's slime coat off? Even if the biologists are out there handling them roughly, does that make it right for everybody to raise their C&R mortality to 10% or even 20%? That is irresponsible to even post 10-20% mortality and imply its OK. At that rate the entire Provo fishery would be wiped out in one year. There are responsible ways to limit the amount of bloodshed in a C&R fishery. Don't net or touch the fish. It's real easy to grasp the leader and get the forceps on the hook bend to pop em out without touching the fish. I do the same with the steelhead I catch. RARELY ever touch them anymore. Need a photo? Steady the fish with the leader and take the shot. That way you can remember the fish AND release them with the highest odds of surviving.

William

[stout_trout]

I guess I'm the only one here who has release a bleeding trout... Man, do I feel stupid for admitting it now.

[highcountry]

I'm not shamed to admit it stout_trout. I have released my share of bleeding fish, especially back when I used to fish with worms. Interesting thing is that when fishing small streams, you can watch the bleeding fish after it is released. Very often, the bleeding fish appeared to have stopped bleeding, and the fish survived just fine. Maybe they take along time to bleed out. but I would say trout are a lot more resiliant than we give them credit for. They have evolved into a pretty tough fish, and deserve more credit than we give them. Sure, they aren't catfish, but they are pretty tough.

That reminds me, heck, I've even released my share of dead planter rainbows. What else are you supposed to do with those pieces of rubber after they die? Eat them? No way!!!

[PowerBaitHeppy]

HC -- don't take this the wrong way, I am not chastising you a bit.

If it's bleeding out the gills, it's dead. Even if it looks like it is doing well, and swims off, it's dead. But, some mortality in many fisheries is a must. It's part of it all. It happens.

That doesn't mean we don't need to be carefull.

Inland -- 10%-20% mortality on the Provo would do wonders for that fishery!

[Mason]

I would guess that at least 10-20% are harvested every year.It would be nice if it was true. Maybe then we wouldn't have to have silly putty and treble hooks on the river.

[FISHINWEAZ]

I can definately say that whenever I've hit the Provo, and decide to harvest a couple, I always get sneered at by other flyfishers. Why is that?
It's never got to me, but I always wonder.

[Mike]

A lot of excellent points made by a lot of people here on this thread. I certainly feel that the discussion of handling fish is one worth having and is very applicable to the site. HOWEVER IF IT CAN'T BE DONE POLITELY, PLEASE DON'T DO IT. Finger pointing, negativity and personal attacks on the site have GOT TO STOP. I don't particularly care if you didn't "start it."

Hey stout... My name is Mike and I've released bleeding fish.

[DrewTrout]

My name is Drew and I actually eat fish that are bleeding from the gills...oh the horror!! And stout, there is usually a little blood when releasing a muskie but it doesn't come from the fish - just forewarning you man.

[Mason]

My name is Drew and I actually eat fish that are bleeding from the gills...oh the horror!! And stout, there is usually a little blood when releasing a muskie but it doesn't come from the fish - just forewarning you man.
Couldn't you at least take them home and cook them first? Eating a fish does not have to happen right when it starts bleeding.

[Mike]

If this post is directed at me, I am sorry. At the same time I wasnt aware that I personally attacked anyone. I will check my posts again. Having checked I was snide, and for that I am sorry..
My comments weren't directed at anyone partciularly!

It seems like every other thread here seems to turn into something personal or negative these days. I don't know if it's because Jason and I are short on time for moderation or what. What I do know is I think it's unfortunate, it didn't used to be that way and it doesn't have to and shouldn't be in the future. A little common courtesy by all will go a long way... Especially if the subject matter is touchy or controversial.

[inland]

fishfanatic,

It was your hard edged points and counterpoints that YOU used in this thread to defend yourself from something that happened. As I said before, I don't really care one iota what happened to that fish. It's not native, or even naturalized, and is therefore expendable in the grand scheme of things. But I wouldn't have posted the photo on a flyfishing website without expecting to be criticized for it.

I have no idea how many hours of angling are logged on the lower Provo. Shooting from my hip here, I will compare it to my favorite Quebec Salmon river. That particular Quebec river receives 7500 angler days in the 4 months it's open. The average fisher spends 8 hours fishing each day= 60,000 fishing hours/season. The reason I chose this river is because it sees LESS pressure than the Lower Provo. My best guess on the Lower is the angler pressure must be AT LEAST 100K hours for the entire year. Probably closer to 150K. I would bet the angler average is two fish hooked/hour (some get none while others get way more). Taking the smaller number of hours, that equals 200K fish hooked per year. (Yes, most fish are caught several times/year and some are not caught at all). And taking the larger mortality of 20%, that would put the total kill at 40K fish. Or nearly the entire population from Deer Creek to Olmstead. This is just a complete guess and is surely off by astronomical proportions. However, I typed it to show the point of how 20% mortality adds up.

PBH,

I agree with you 100%. A gill bleeder is dead.

But would a 10-20% mortality really improve the Provo? Within reason I would guess the overall size of the fish should increase. But at what point does it no longer matter? 4K fish/mile? 800 fish/mile? 100 fish/mile? Matter to where you get the largest trout in the biggest numbers? Or is that the direction the public wants? A fishery of 3-7 pound browns that are very difficult to catch on flies. A fishery where the average angler used to go out and catch a dozen or so 12"-17" fish, under decent conditions, in half a day? Or a fishery where the most expert anglers are lucky to catch a dozen fish a week?

Me personally, I would relish a 'local' Silver Creek or Henry's Fork. But I also know that is not fair for everybody.

William

[steelie]

Kum by ya my Lord, kum by ya
Kum by ya my Lord, kum by ya
Kum by ya my Lord, kum by ya
Oh, Lord kum by ya.
Someone’s crying Lord, kum by ya
Someone’s praying Lord, kum by ya
“ singing “
“ laughing “
Come by here my Lord, come by here.

LOL

Don't net or touch the fish. It's real easy to grasp the leader and get the forceps on the hook bend to pop em out without touching the fish. I do the same with the steelhead I catch. RARELY ever touch them anymore. Need a photo? Steady the fish with the leader and take the shot.

Ya know what is even easier? before you cast the fly, cut the hook off at the bend - works great for releasing them and as an added bonus, the fish does not become oxygen depleted or build up any lactic acid. There really is no better way for those of us that like to fish from a soapbox, that is until I figure out how to tie em up on a little rubber shank, so I don't hurt their little lips.

I'm not trying to offend you or pick on you inland, just trying to prove a point - fishing is different for everyone. Personally I want.....actually make that "I need" to hold the fish - to make it complete I suppose. I'd feel different if I thought it hurt the fish, but I've got quite a few trout around that I have held multiple times.......year after year, they seem to be doing fine.

[powerbait]

tell you what. I am coming up to Utah for Ice off at the Berry. We can meet and you can tell me to my face what you think of me.

Tongue in cheek, my friend, tongue in cheek. I'm a nympher (can't fish dries to save my life), I've worn a mullet, and I have no problem with people from Arizona (after all, I'm from Utah: gateway to Nevada).

If I've offended anyone, please accept my sincere apologies--that was never my intent. I realize now that the choice of words in the original post was a poor one. I didn't mean to accuse anyone who's ever accidentally squeezed, dropped, or gill gaffed a fish of ignorance. Rather, I wanted an explanation for the numerous pictures I've seen in recent weeks and months (here and elsewhere) that suggest that people may not realize how to properly handle fish they plan to release. There seemed to be too many of them to be explained by random mishaps and trophies kept. So, what explains it? The only explanation I could think of was that people honestly don't know better. Now, maybe it's unfair (or unkind) to label that "ignorance," but that was the thought behind the original post.

What prompted the original post wasn't a gill gaff at all, but a picture of a brown trout that had been dragged up on the (dry) rocks to take its picture. I emailed the poster privately only to find out that it was part of a batch of photos posted generically on UTOF, and it was suggested to me that I consider posting a thread on handling fish.

To be clear: I have committed all of these cardinal "sins." I have dragged fish up on banks, and banged their heads on rocks, squeezed them, touched them with dry hands, kept them out of the water for too long, and released fish that I shouldn't have (bleeding out the gills) ... you name it. In some instances I did so deliberately (I wanted to eat the fish); in some instances out of ignorance or carelessness. I don't mind admitting that. But I like to think that over the course of some 25 years of fishing that I've learned a few things. I'm certain that fish I land and release still die, but I do my utmost to minimize that possibility, even when it comes to whitefish. Why? Because over time my respect for all living things has deepened. More importantly, I have become more aware of the fact that this hobby we enjoy relies on what is really a fragile and precious resource. Individual fish can be quite tough, to be sure, but the resource itself is quite fragile. We can abuse it, or we can value and respect it. And "valuing the resource" doesn't mean we let every fish go. I think it does mean, however, that when we decide to release a fish, we try as best we can to make sure that that--no matter how bad we want that photo--the fish lives to fight another day.

Peace,
--powerbait

P.S. Fishfanatic, if you still want to meet up at the Berry come ice off, let me know. I'll buy you a (root) beer.

[inland]

Steelie,

That is fine. I did not say it was a requirement. I'm not out lobbying the state to adopt new rules. It was just a suggestion. I don't 'need' to touch released fish anymore. BTW, what causes that white fungus?

With your handle 'steelie', let me switch this over to something I would much rather talk about:

Of the handful of hatchery steelhead I 'whack' each year, I find that fully 'completes' the inner predator. Gives 'my' sport a final means. I didn't kill a steelhead on purpose the first 7 years I fished for them. After 15+ years of C&R fishing for all species it was extremely alien to kill a fish. Especially one that had migrated so far, against all odds. Even though I choose to use one of the least effective methods of catching a steelhead, putting a fine dinner on the table still has it's merits. Through monkeying around with several preparation techniques, I have come to find steelhead to be SUPERB table fare. The only fish I have eaten that eclipses steelhead: fresh Columbia River spring run Chinook. They are truly to die for.

Before you lump me into the 'soapbox' understand I understand this is a blood sport. One I partake of, at specific times, with the lustful intent of killing fish. (Ever eaten a fresh, translucent, pure chrome hatch summer steelhead caught in March, April, or even May?) And there are times when accidents happen: I have had to release more than one wild steelhead over the years that was hooked in the gills and bleeding. Times that truly questioned what in the world am I doing out there. Accidently killing an endangered species 'for fun'. Thankfully it has been less than 1% of the steelhead I have hooked. Nevertheless, I had to come to terms with the odd chance of it happening. Was that worth it to continue to pursue what I enjoyed? I was able to honestly, guilt free, answer: Yes. Knowing FULL WELL it's a blood sport. Nothing more. Nothing less.

However, when fishing with the intentions of NOT killing I like to limit the potential damage. I don't try to catch every fish in the river anymore. More than a handful of trout in a day is lost on me. Any more than a steelhead or two is pure hedonistic gluttony. I pretty must stop fishing at 2. I have not felt the need to fish hookless flies. I still plan on hooking and playing the fish that take. An LDR is just fine with me. If they happen to stay hooked up, not touching them is my way of ensuring I won't compromise their slime coat (which potentially leads to problems down the road).

But those are 'my' rules. I don't expect anybody to live up them except me.

William

[Jason]

Tim, I think your use of the word ignorance is right on. Many fly fishers just don't know better; handling or releasing fish. It all comes down to education. I think all we can do is get the word out and teach people the proper etiquette in handling and releasing fish. I think for the most part most fly fishers have good intentions and try to handle the fish the best they can. We shouldn't be critical to those that don't know better, just try to teach them the right way. $.02

[Wyoming2utah]

When I catch a fish that I wish to take a picture of, I usually stick my fingers underneath its gill plates and hold it high...by doing this, I can hold onto it without it slipping away. I don't give a rat's ass if anyone on this site doesn't like it or thinks it will hurt the poor little fishy...fishing is a blood sport (like Grizz mentioned). I have been handling fish my entire lifetime and have a pretty good idea what will and what won't kill a fish. Call me ignorant, arrogant, or whatever you choose, but I will continue to "gill gaff" fish and not think anything of it.

[highcountry]

That's a good point W2U. You can stick your finger in the gill plate just as long as you don't rip up the gills. I am guilty of thay. Being a self taught, 1st generation flyfisherman coming from an exclusively worm fishing family, I never even realized that this was "unethical" or harmful in anyway. Pretty much all of the fish I caught would be landed in this way, with one finger under the gill plate. The interesting thing is that they would almost always survive. I really don't think it's as big of a deal as it is being made out to be.

PBH - No problem here. I am always learning, and I appreciate it when people correct me when I am not clear on a subject. So you're saying that if a fishes gills are bleeding at all, the fish is a gonner? There is no clotting or anything at all to save the fish? What if the fish rubbed up against a stick and its gills were cut in the water? Is there no natural defense except for the gill plate? Hemophilia of the gills! Interesting stuff.

[Grizz]

Exploitation of the poor fish. I wonder what their take is?, Cause you know fish have feelings......sniffle~sniffle (clutching kleenex as I sob over the injustice to our finned friends)

In order to relive the wonders of hooking & holding that beautiful creature, it just makes sense to employ a caring touch. They are wet horizontal creatures (until stabbed), let's keep 'em wet & horizontal unless they're destin for the flames. I guess it all boils down to whether or not you really give a rats ass about the resource.

fish food for thought.

peace

[Juke]

I personally like it when our picene pals are vertical creatures rising to my size 12 adams, and then tail walking all the way to the fire.

Lemon, Emeril's, and a cold beverage of your choice.

[Grizz]

I personally like it when our picene pals are vertical creatures rising to my size 12 adams, and then tail walking all the way to the fire.

Lemon, Emeril's, and a cold beverage of your choice.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, dinner @ 8

I'll take a Teton Sweet Grass & a chaser of frosty OLY! BABY!

BAMMMMM!

pea's

FISH, please handle with care. Fra-jill-eee, must be Italian.

[Grizz]

Grizz,

Speakin of "puttin the wood", when you heading out for the frozen tundra again? If it's a weekend, coming up, let me know, we can give a few the steely bite.

I will gladly pay you Tuesday, for a Pabst today!

Tom,

I'd love to! We've been talkin' 'bout it too long, let's put the wheels in motion & make this happen. Sunday & Monday produced many fine browns in the sunshine. Not one was gill gaffed or jugler stabbed!

e-mail grizz @ candelin@utah-inter.net

p's b's 'n r's

[Utah DaveII]

You get a nice gill gaff post going and it rolls on for 5 pages. You get a nice poacher post and it rolls on for 5 pages. You get a regulations post and it rolls on for 10 pages. Talk about protecting riparian areas, roadless areas, water flows and you guys are like a bunch of deer in the headlights.

In the grand scheme of conservation, C&R mortality is a very, very small piece of the pie. Yet, it recieves probably 90% of our energy. I think we are misplacing our efforts at time. And yes Powerbait, I will send my letter tonight or tomorrow.

[cheech]

You get a nice gill gaff post going and it rolls on for 5 pages. You get a nice poacher post and it rolls on for 5 pages. You get a regulations post and it rolls on for 10 pages. Talk about protecting riparian areas, roadless areas, water flows and you guys are like a bunch of deer in the headlights.

In the grand scheme of conservation, C&R mortality is a very, very small piece of the pie. Yet, it recieves probably 90% of our energy. I think we are misplacing our efforts at time. And yes Powerbait, I will send my letter tonight or tomorrow.


You are my buddy UDMCMXVIII. Cheer up, and go fish the midges on the middle;)

[Utah DaveII]

Good advice clarke. BTw how is Mw doing lately, I need a good laugh!

[cheech]

Good advice clarke. BTw how is Mw doing lately, I need a good laugh!

He basically found a job where he has to work. It's in Ogden, so I don't see his sorry a$$ very much anymore. We fished last weekend though, we'll probably go out again this weekend. I'm just waiting for him to get in a foul enough mood to post something. Other than that, it's the same ol' MWBeeatcho. Extraordinary dry fly skills, terrible TERRIBLE attitude.

Stout- My name is cheech, and I have released bleeding fish, and I ate a 19" brookie last year.

[Wyoming2utah]

"You get a nice gill gaff post going and it rolls on for 5 pages. You get a nice poacher post and it rolls on for 5 pages. You get a regulations post and it rolls on for 10 pages. Talk about protecting riparian areas, roadless areas, water flows and you guys are like a bunch of deer in the headlights.

In the grand scheme of conservation, C&R mortality is a very, very small piece of the pie. Yet, it recieves probably 90% of our energy. I think we are misplacing our efforts at time. And yes Powerbait, I will send my letter tonight or tomorrow."

Dave, I agree 100%...but, I think like many, this site serves an entertainment purpose for me more than anything else.

[Utah DaveII]

True...

But it is also a good source of information. Plus I know a lot of these guys outside the board and I think my post pretty accurately reflects their sentiments.

[powerbait]

I'd second that, Dave II. I hope the site could entertain as well as inform. And, honestly, I'm not concerned whether the regular posters here know how to properly catch and release a fish. I'm more concerned about someone new to the site who shows up to learn about fly fishing, sees a few pics and thinks that's a good way to handle a fish. W2U may know how to safely lift a fish by its gill plates, but I suspect your average novice angler does not.

[Grizz]

I'm just glad that there are the few like you who concentrate on the real consevation efforts. I wish I could do more, but I'm too busy ffishin'. Keep up the good work & good on ya, give yourself an atta-boy! ;-)

peace

[Fred]

I think like many, this site serves an entertainment purpose for me more than anything else.

I thought fly fishing was supposed to be entertaining--i.e. fun.

Do you guys have fun when you fish, or do you just analyze the river and why the fish might more might not be stunting, how your day of fishing impacts the fish mortality rate, and stuff like that.

I don't. I just try to figure out what the fish are eatin. And try to have some fun. Drink a bear or two.

To each, his or her own, I guess. But you guys kind of remind me of the little league coach that spends half his time yelling at the kids, and half the time complaining at the ump. Somewhere in the process they forget that it's supposed to be fun for the kids.

Later Baiter.

[Cary]

... Drink a bear or two.




you are one tough son of a gun.

[cheech]

I thought fly fishing was supposed to be entertaining--i.e. fun.

Do you guys have fun when you fish, or do you just analyze the river and why the fish might more might not be stunting, how your day of fishing impacts the fish mortality rate, and stuff like that.

I don't. I just try to figure out what the fish are eatin. And try to have some fun. Drink a bear or two.

To each, his or her own, I guess. But you guys kind of remind me of the little league coach that spends half his time yelling at the kids, and half the time complaining at the ump. Somewhere in the process they forget that it's supposed to be fun for the kids.

Later Baiter.


Fred,
Out of all your whack job posts, That's the one that I like the most. I actually found that I agreed with what you were saying.

Think back to this morning and think about how you did your meds... DO IT EVERY DAY!

Bravo!!

Cheech

[Grizz]

you are one tough son of a gun.

Yep, that's funny Poop. No milk spraying all over my monitor, but funny Poop. You guys make this sight happen .

Fred, easy on the bears, Tiger.

peace

[Sumner Newman]

Hey, stout. I've released bleeding (from the gills) fish that I know will die. (PBH is correct). Most of the ones I recall were cutts at Strawberry that the regulation required be released; it seems to happen to me 2-3 times a year up there. But, it's probably happened other places also where I could have legally kept the fish. My problem is that I don't care to eat trout and believe strongly in a C&R ethic, so I never go equipped to keep fish. It bothers me when a see a nice cutt at the 'berry swim away with a trail of blood coming from his gill raker, but not enough that I'll quit fishing. I recognize that it is a "blood sport", and sometimes despite my best efforts to release fish in good condition, a few are going to die.

I do, however, remember a day at Mantua a few years ago when I brought in a nice 'bow that had my fly in his gills. Rather than just release the fish to die, I decided to keep the fish. I quickly kicked into shore and walked over to the private campground just west of the boat ramp and offered the freshly caught trout to an older couple there. They were delighted to take it, and I was delighted to give it to them. That is sometimes, if the opportunity presents itself, a good way to deal with dying fish that you do not want or can't properly take care of.

[Stoney Clarke]

I agree with Fred and Grizzly. PBJ always likes to point out that I never contribute anything meaningful. I disagree with that. Like Fred I'm mostly concerned with if, and where the hatch will be, what technique is working or just hanging out looking for bears to drink or doing a sketch of the river. But I do believe you should handle the fish with care and return them to their home, why not? There was the time about 5 years ago I was on the MP. I watched this guy catch a nice size brown, put it on a stringer, place it back in the pool and head up stream. The guy never saw me, but I could see that the fish was still splashing around after he left. I wondered over, saw that the guy was out of sight and then released his fish. Swam away quickly to live another day.

SC

[Wyoming2utah]

Uhhh Fred...I think you have totally misunderstood what I was saying. I come to this site more for entertainment than any other reason....this site isn't where I come when I need information. What does that have to do with why I fish? I too fish for entertainment.

Actually "you guys kind of remind me of the little league [fan] that spends half his time yelling at the [refs], and half the time complaining at the [coach]. Somewhere in the process they forget that it's supposed to be fun for the kids."

"Do you guys have fun when you fish, or do you just analyze the river and why the fish might more might not be stunting, how your day of fishing impacts the fish mortality rate, and stuff like that."

No, I think of this stuff while entertaining myself behind a keyboard while on fishing forums. In fact, I don't even give a damn what the fish are eating when I go fishing...I simply care about whether the fish are taking my bait or not.

[Grizz]

In fact, I don't even give a damn what the fish are eating when I go fishing...I simply care about whether the fish are taking my bait or not.

You said bait. :-) Where do they take it?

In da mouth!

pea's

[Wyoming2utah]

The difference, though, is that you might spend twenty minutes trying to figure out what the fish are eating before you start fishing. I start fishing and then worry whether the fish are going to "eat" my bait. I don't care what the fish are eating before I start fishing...I am not into the match the hatch and entomology that so many others are into.

hate...war...murder...killing...and lots of dead Iraqis!

[Grizz]

The difference, though, is that you might spend twenty minutes trying to figure out what the fish are eating before you start fishing. I start fishing and then worry whether the fish are going to "eat" my bait. I don't care what the fish are eating before I start fishing...I am not into the match the hatch and entomology that so many others are into.

I'm right there with ya little feller. I throw utter & complete junk & get very excited when the fish eat what others scoff at. & they scoff untill the proof's in the pudding (da mouth). I will match, but I really like to un-match the hatch. Fish are wicked stupid & hungry to boot.

pea's

[Jason]

This thread is now closed.