Cuts vs. Browns

[Mykiss84037]

A few years back, my grandpa passed away and left me, my uncle and 4 of my cousins a ranch in Wyoming. No one lives there permanently, and we lease most of the land out to a guy for grazing to help cover the taxes. Theres about 2 1/2 miles of spring creek on the property, including 8 different springs that flow down into the main channel. The stream is chuck full of native snake river fine spotted cuts, has a fair number of resident browns and fills up with great big browns that swim up from Pallisades every fall and early winter. I've never caught a huge fish there, but the 15 - 18 inchers are pretty common, and you can't beat the scenery.

In 2002, the red-necked jackass who leases the property got a wild hair up his @$# and took a backhoe into one of the springs without our permission. He dug out part of a natural basin, dammed up the spring and flooded 3 or 4 acres to a maximum depth of about 15 feet. I was horrified at the time, but now the little lake is looking promising. The outlet is a 3 foot corregated culvert about 3 1/2 feet above the streamlet formed by the exiting water, and flows well year round. The spring was low when the moron dammed it, and as far as I can tell, there's no trout in the pond but there are huge schools of little 2 inch guppy looking fish, and a handfull of big black stonefly nymphs under every rock. I'm thinking about talking to the Wyoming Fisheries department about buying some planters to stock the pond with this year. The spring is under the pond and there is no other inlet, so I don't think they would ever spawn - but I think there's enough food and cold fresh water to grow some pigs.

I'm no biologist, and my question to those of you who are is: If I do stock it, which would you recommend putting in the pond, Browns or fine spotted cuts.

I'm also somewhat torn by the moral and ethical issues of creating my own little captive population of pet trout. It's all private property and the ranch corporation has rights to way more water than we use, so having the pond is legal, but it was a beautiful wild spring that fed into an even more beautiful creek, and I worry that if I introduce anything to the eco-system I could ruin something I love, and I already consider near nirvana. If I don't put some trout in the pond, I'm gonna rent a backhoe of my own and drain it this spring in the hopes that it will someday return to the way it was.

What do some of you think. I've struggeled with this for a year now, and I'm open to suggestions from this site. What would you do if you were in my situation?

[Trout4x]

Wish I had an answer for you, my only request is once you do what you do is to let me come up and try the place out to give you feedback whether or not it was a good idea.

[Mason]

My dads "experimnet" turned out sweet.. He as steelhead that are returning hold up in his pond every year, as well as the planted "pigs" that live there year round..


If anyone is interested, I go there everyyear to hunt deer and toss a bug or two..

Aint private property fun?
I'm interested!!! ME ME ME!!

[Mykiss84037]

I would also either stop the lease with the moron that did this to your land without permision or slap his ass with a major lawsuit..



If it were up to me I'd bury him with his own backhoe, but I own 1 of 6 shares, and a couple of the others love the guy. Toothless hillbilly does take pretty good care of the place...

[jdubya]

If I don't put some trout in the pond, I'm gonna rent a backhoe of my own and drain it this spring in the hopes that it will someday return to the way it was.

What do some of you think. I've struggeled with this for a year now, and I'm open to suggestions from this site. What would you do if you were in my situation?

i'd rent the backhoe....

[Lonnie]

Mykiss,

I'm not a lawyer and this isn't intended as legal advice, but I used to work as a wetlands scientist. With that being said, I'd be very careful here. It sounds like that there's been some sort of wetland disturbance without a permit. This could get you into very serious trouble with the Army Corps on Engineers. Like $10,000 a day serious trouble. Even though you didn't do the work, the property owner is responsible for any wetland filling/draining without a permit. It might be worth making a call to the Local ACOE office and explianing the situation and asking for their advice. If you explain it and offer to restore it, then things might work out without anything else happening. If not then it looks alot worse to the ACOE (like you are complicit).

Good luck,
Lonnie

[powerbait]

I'd be wary of stocking trout, particularly in the age of whirling disease. Hatchery trout can introduce all kinds of diseases into wild populations, and that can occur even if the trout in this pond don't ever get into the stream itself. You may be able to identify a source for "certified disease free" fish, but even then there are no guarantees. And if you do stock, I would certainly stock native cutts rather than browns. (Browns are poor fish for those type of ponds anyway.)

I can't add much on the wetlands issue except to say a lot of it depends on what was destroyed. There is rarely any problem with damming up a creek on your own land to make a pond (though some states require formal permitting for this), but it may well be a different story if there was a spring fed wetland there, even a very small one.

[Mykiss84037]

Mykiss,

This could get you into very serious trouble with the Army Corps on Engineers.

Lonnie



Thanks for the advice Lonnie. I'll give 'em a call. The more permits I'd need the less I want pet trout. Their answer might make my decision easy.

BTW - I also have a couple hundred feet of creek flowing across the property where I live, here in Utah. When I built my house in 2000, I talked to the head civil engineer at the county flood contol / water rights office about modifications to the stream, which has a wet land easment as well as a flood control easment on either side of it. He told me that I could dam the creek to create a pond as long as I didn't remove water or create a flood hazard down stream - I'd only need to get a permit and a site inspection from the flood control office. He didn't metion the ACOE or any other state or federal agency. Is he wrong? I'm not going to do it in my yard - my kids don't need a swimming hole - I'm just curious.

[Lonnie]

Mykiss,

Send me a pm or an e-mail, and I'll talk to you on the back channel...

L

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Whoa, whoa whoa!!!!!

Slow down people!!!! Don't talk about stream alterations, taking a backhoe into any wetlands on this site. It obviously isn't fly-fishing related, and Mike will close the thread!!

[Mykiss84037]

It is your property, do as you wish..


The property may be private, but the water flowing across it, and the fish swimming on to and off of it are everyones...

[Lonnie]

Whoa, whoa whoa!!!!!

Slow down people!!!! Don't talk about stream alterations, taking a backhoe into any wetlands on this site. It obviously isn't fly-fishing related, and Mike will close the thread!!

That's why we have pm's.....

[Juke]

Mykiss,

I'm not a lawyer and this isn't intended as legal advice, but I used to work as a wetlands scientist. With that being said, I'd be very careful here. It sounds like that there's been some sort of wetland disturbance without a permit. This could get you into very serious trouble with the Army Corps on Engineers. Like $10,000 a day serious trouble. Even though you didn't do the work, the property owner is responsible for any wetland filling/draining without a permit. It might be worth making a call to the Local ACOE office and explianing the situation and asking for their advice. If you explain it and offer to restore it, then things might work out without anything else happening. If not then it looks alot worse to the ACOE (like you are complicit).

Good luck,
Lonnie

Mykiss, in my experience with the Corps this is the worst case secenario described. Often they will grant an "after the fact permit" for work that has already been done. Granted this is poor policy by the Corps, basically sanctioning the work once the damage has been done, but.... Also if you show a visible effort to enhance the surrounding wetlands habitat, this will also be a positive in the eyes of the Corp.

Certified disease free cutthroats are tough to find. The politically correct thing to do would be to stock a cutthroat subspecies that is endemic to the area(Colorado River Cutthroats?). That area of Wyoming has three subspecies within a very close geographic distance. An option I would look at is contacting Wyo F&G, they may have $$$ available for work on private property to support native re-introductions. Often you can still keep your land private, but allow the F&G access to the fish for possible spawn take operations, etc. The population on your property could possible serve as a "insurance policy" for the particular sub species.

I

[Grizz]

The property may be private, but the water flowing across it, and the fish swimming on to and off of it are everyones...

I like your take on this. My extended family has property west of Thayne with a spring/slough that runs through the property. My fathers side of the family settled Freedom & they still own mucho land there. When I lived in Afton for a spell, I fished my guts out. Salt, Cottonwood, Strawberry, Snake, Etc Etc Etc......

If the fish on your property are migrating form the Salt/Pallisades, you have some beautiful fish to corral. I often drift off & relive those hot summer days wet-wading the Salt tossing big sticky bugs for abundant Cutts & the sleeper bruiser Brown & the white fish population is out of this world, any BH can contest to that. Great area for fish & fishing. I hope your venture works out. I think a summer outing to Star Valley is in order. Colters, Casting & Cutts.

pea's

[PowerBaitHeppy]

Lonnie -- just wanted to add something to the other discussion that got shut down: If you have to clear Tamarisk before you can build, you are in a flood plain. Many of those people didn't think that they were in a flood plain, because the river was half a mile away. But they all had tamarisk, and cottonwoods on their property. Still, I don't blame the home owners. I blame the city, along with the developers. Bad move on their part.


As for the land in that had a backhoe taken to it to divert the water, and flood the fields -- what a travesty! This kind of crap happens all the time, and many times the land owners feel they have every right to do this (not trying to place blame here mykiss). UM Creek near Danish Meadows in Southern Utah has a similar problem. At the head of Danish Meadows the stream flows through a section of private land. The landowner runs cattle, and loves to divert the water to flood the meadow. Of course, this is illegal, and hast negative effects to the fishery. The cattle have been taken care of, but I'm not sure if the de-watering has been cured yet or not. Why do people have to think that they can just run a river where they want....

[Mykiss84037]

I If the fish on your property are migrating form the Salt/Pallisades, you have some beautiful fish to corral.
pea's


Not gonna "hot spot" my own land,... but them's the fish. Fiesty little fu@#ers, aint they. Watchin' em hit a big dry is reminiscent of watching an orca hit a baby sea lion.

Our place is available for a summer get together, just have to plan it around my annual AK trips...

Colter's for sure.

[THeBLender]

Seems like I'm always looking for someplace to fish about the time all of my buddies are heading off on the deer hunt. I've even thought about joing a few of them just to fish... How 'bout a "head's up" for me too?

[THeBLender]

Our place is available for a summer get together, just have to plan it around my annual AK trips... Colter's for sure.

That sounds like a blast. Of course, if you thought that fella did some damage to your land with his backhoe, you must not have seen this marauding band :)

[Grizz]

Not gonna "hot spot" my own land,... but them's the fish. Fiesty little fu@#ers, aint they. Watchin' em hit a big dry is reminiscent of watching an orca hit a baby sea lion.

Our place is available for a summer get together, just have to plan it around my annual AK trips...

Colter's for sure.

Memories~Memories, sniffle, sniffle........

I'm all for a Star Valley fish fest, let's talk more as the snow melts & the sun shines a little longer. Do you know if the Valley Vineyard is still pouring drinks?

peace

[Lonnie]

Brett,

I somewhat agree with you. There are warning signs and indicators that one should be aware of. The problem is most folks aren't trained to see them. That's what professionals are for. Additionally, FEMA has mapped out most potential flood plain areas (interestingly I don't think these maps exist in digital form for the flooded area.) Even without these maps, there is guidance on how to proceed. So if folks did not do their due diligence, then we cannot blame the federal government. Now local governments and zoning along with the developers are a totally different animal.